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  1. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2010 6:42pm


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    our take on the krump

    Hello.
    This covers the krump and the pieces related to the krump. As usual it is all coming from the Ringeck manual.



    This is a kind of summary:
    YouTube- krumprcapII_0001.wmv

    That covers breaking the guard
    YouTube- breaking the ox

    That is our take on the deflections
    YouTube- Deflection from the krump

    and on the counters
    YouTube- counter to the krump


    phil
  2. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/17/2010 2:28am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Very thorough, thanks.
  3. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/17/2010 6:45pm


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Very thorough, thanks.
    thanks, hopefully people will come up with way to make it better.

    Phil
  4. Mordschlag is online now

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2010 12:32am


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for posting the videos, always cool to see people practice. Two things though:

    I. What's the deal with your swords? Are they rattan? If so why do you not use more substantial wooden wasters? I imagine rattan cannot possibly be weighted or feel realistic much at all.

    II. In your Ochs breaking video. First the man in Ochs seems to have an unusually high Ochs. Shouldn't he have his arms lower and closer to his head? Does Ringeck not say "Der ochS do schlick dich also mit stand mit dem linkcen fuS vor und halt din schwert neben diner rechten sytten vir din haupt"? The man in the video practically looks like he is in a hanging ward or something. I guess it could be that he is just thrusting from a high position, but then why call this a counter to a "static" position when he is clearly not static at all. Second, I don't really see you breaking his Ochs at all so much as you are just hitting his arms while he is in Ochs. To break an Ochs with a Krumphaw (as depicted in the "Vier Versetzen" section) you should be deflecting his point away from you as you step in and strike his open side, as the crooked nature of the Krump will naturally force his blade down and away from you.
  5. kwan_dao is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2010 4:55am


     Style: sambo, stuff

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post
    What's the deal with your swords? Are they rattan? If so why do you not use more substantial wooden wasters? I imagine rattan cannot possibly be weighted or feel realistic much at all.
    They look like modified kendo shinai (bamboo "swords"). Which they probably are.
  6. Polar Bear is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2010 8:41am


     Style: WMA - German Longsword

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I like the deflection from the krump vid. That is how I intrepret Krumphau. I also works from Vom Tag very well. One thing to try though is don't let your point fall ooff after pressing the blade aside. Hold the point and step. You'll find your opponents blade collapses and the point or blade goes into the opening.
  7. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2010 6:40am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post
    Thanks for posting the videos, always cool to see people practice. Two things though:

    I. What's the deal with your swords? Are they rattan? If so why do you not use more substantial wooden wasters? I imagine rattan cannot possibly be weighted or feel realistic much at all.

    Hello
    I can see where you are coming from, and I really wish I could mount a convincing argument as to why using unber-shinai is the right way to go, but really we will all have equally valid arguments for all type of the simulator.

    Ideally I would like to have a simulator of the same quality of rapier simulator but those are modified shinai. AkA a variant of Uber-shinai.
    We use weight on the handle to compensate for some of the weight.
    Compared to all the historical swords I have handled, other that dedicated panzerstecher, shinai are bouncier and somewhat slower than normal sword and thrust can be dangerous when sparing
    Modifying the weight distribution mitigate the behaviour somewhat. As well, we do practice form work with blunt and helmet, but form sparing and sparing are done with uner-shinai as well we do test cutting. I do not think anyone can disagree with the getting used to steel.

    That being said, I have tried and spared with rattan, wooden waster, padded weapon, Feder and nylon wasters.I started with blunt steel and the same protection level as you see in the vid. Definitely proving that not so deep in every grown up man, there is a testosterone ridden teenager.

    To be honest I think that shinai are the least worse.
    There is no way you can hit as hard and with as much intent with waster nylon or wood without some form of protection/padding.
    For me it is more important than you can strike as hard as you can and do not wear armour other than a fencing helmet.

    Feeder only require a pair of gauntlets and master fencing jacket, which is definitely acceptable for “naked fencing” and it is very good in the bind but it a tad too wobbly, in most of the strike the tip stays behind.
    And from my experience in the European championship (I was a judge) they do break too often. We went through 6-8 in one day and half.
    Like most of the padded weapon, feders do favour heavily one aspect of fencing albeit not the same.

    I used to be quite militant about that but German “long sword fencing”, covers a 300-400 years and covers different weapons and during that period of the time the same type of weapons has evolved. I E a 1350 longsword do not behave quite the same as a 1450 longsword.
    But the same technique applies equally to both as they do apply to messer, so for me it is much more important to learn how to set up the gag so that regardless of the weapon/simulator you are in a big window for you small window for your oppoenent.

    As well, most of the other martial arts do not mind as much a spare or against an uber-shinai than they do against a feeder, and I have learned a lot from those cross MA sparing.

    As I said as the start, I am pretty sure you can mount as compeling an argument regarding your simulator of choice. At the end of the day It is a matter of what we can live with rather than what the simulator is good for.

    Phil
  8. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2010 1:51pm


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Polar Bear View Post
    I like the deflection from the krump vid. That is how I intrepret Krumphau. I also works from Vom Tag very well. One thing to try though is don't let your point fall ooff after pressing the blade aside. Hold the point and step. You'll find your opponents blade collapses and the point or blade goes into the opening.
    Hello PB

    Just to make sure I got you right, you are talking of something along the line of what @ 3 to 3:15 in YouTube- krumprcapII_0001.wmv
    if that the case I totally agree with you.
    The only caveat I have to that is that if you plan/need to go forward, you need to dip the tip in a shrankhutt to cover your entrance (i.e. preventing/limiting the damage of any of the two possible counters) and of course the more extended you opponent is the more he has compromised is position the less of a shrankutt you need.
    so I totally agree with all the “work” of the deflection is done by taking the short edge. the diping of the tip, if any has to do with what comes next.
    on top of that that ties up nicely with uncle sigmund comment on that if you want to get close use the shrankhut.

    Yes it does work from the Zorn, uncle sigmung event tells us so.
    Personally I tend use the Zornott quite a lot because we can have always the same starting point regardless of the technique that will follow.
    In any case Ringeck, after (or in according how you read it) the passage about the sword and buckler, has a bit of a spill on how good the zornott is and how you can defend against anything with, and he has something similar on the krump just after IE if you are not too sure if it is an uber or unterhaw, krump it and you will hit last.

    And the Zornhott is nothing more than the position when you finish the zhorn cut and before you start your thrust.

    Phil
  9. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2010 6:49pm


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post
    Thanks for posting the videos, always cool to see people practice. Two things though:

    II. In your Ochs breaking video. First the man in Ochs seems to have an unusually high Ochs. Shouldn't he have his arms lower and closer to his head? Does Ringeck not say "Der ochS do schlick dich also mit stand mit dem linkcen fuS vor und halt din schwert neben diner rechten sytten vir din haupt"? The man in the video practically looks like he is in a hanging ward or something. I guess it could be that he is just thrusting from a high position, but then why call this a counter to a "static" position when he is clearly not static at all. Second, I don't really see you breaking his Ochs at all so much as you are just hitting his arms while he is in Ochs. To break an Ochs with a Krumphaw (as depicted in the "Vier Versetzen" section) you should be deflecting his point away from you as you step in and strike his open side, as the crooked nature of the Krump will naturally force his blade down and away from you.
    Hello Mortshlag

    Well yes and no but I really thing the argument is more on the semantic and whose text do we use a reference than anything else.

    But first, yes I agree it works just as well and it is just as pertinent from the bind as it is to break the distance.
    I call it static because the baddy is waiting for us to break the distance and countering us using the most direct and quickest route, if we can take care of that if he keeps his hands close to his body the better for us.
    to put it and other way when we break the ox you at one stage, as a baddy I just swap my feet around and just changes side without moving forward or backward this is the same as if I did not move at all.

    To make it simpler, I could have started in an ox before Adrian (the guy that wins) started but one of the point I am trying to make is that it does not matter what he does when I entre the zu fechten. What matter is where is hands are when I have landed my initial step. IE when I have put my left foot forward, sure breaking the guard can be used in the bind but it is a very easy way to do he appropriated strike when you are breaking the distance to get in a position where you can strike without overextending (unless he goes back after the zufecheten and then it safe for us to overextend)

    Because we have little time to decide, I really believe that Ringeck (well lichtanauer) have made it super simple for us.

    Regardless of the style any of the guard that exist will fall into one of the 4 position (5 if you includes long point).
    i.e. hand high and forward= ox
    hand high and back= VT
    hands low and in front= alber
    hands low and back =plough
    in the middle and extended= long point

    Now as far as our opponent is concerned his sword can point where he sees fit, but when we are in those position, we should always being the most direct way to attack hence the sword position of the OX, plough, alber, and VT.

    for the semantic part
    You see in VD, Lew, speyer, Ringeck, there is no mention of hanging guard/ward
    because it really doe not matter how far our opponents hands are in front of his head.

    Breaking the guard is described as a direct strike ie, there is no blade contact
    But all of the main glossator albeit Ringeck tell us that I can be used in close fighting (Ringeck tells it indirectly)
  10. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2010 6:55pm


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here the original texts


    In vd, goliath and Lew you have
    daß krump haw ist der vier versetzen einß wider die vier hut wann damit kriegt man den ochsen und auch den eber / Und den untterhaw den trieb also wann du mit dem zufechten zu Im komst Steet er denn gegen dir und helt sein swert vor dem kopff In der hut deß ochsen auf seiner lincken seitten So setz den lincken fuß für und halt dein swert an der rechten achseln yn der hut und auß der hutt springe mit dem rechten fusse wol auff die rechten seitten und schlag In mit der langen sneiden auß [14 r] gecreutzten armen über sein hende etc.

    That is that the krump is the one of the 4 defelctions/parrys done against the 4 possition/guard when closefighting someone with the ox and as well the boar. and the unterhaw that is done when you go at him with the zu fechrten and he stands gainst you holding his sword in front if his head, in the guard of the ox onto his left side. So stand with the left foot forward an hold your sword at your right shoulder in the guard/possition, jump with th eright foot well onto the rights ide and strike, out of crossed arms , over his hands with the long edge



    Ringeck
    Die erst hu°tt.
    Der ochß. Do schick dich also mit: stand mit dem lincken fu°ß vor, vnd halt din schwert neben diner rechten sytten vir din haupt, vnd laß im den ort gegen dem gesicht hangen.

    The first guard/position
    The Ochs, then set yourself like so: stand with the left foot forward and hold your sword close/near your right side in front (vir=vor) of your head. And let the point hang against his face


    Der krumphaw mitt sinen stucken.
    Krump vff behende, wirff den ort vff die hende.
    Daß ist, wie du krump solt hawen zu° den henden. Vnd daß stuck tryb also: wenn er dir von deiner rechten sytten mitt ainem obern oder vndern haw zu° der blöss hawet, so spring vsß dem haw mitt dinem rechten fu°ß gegen im wol vff sin lincke sytten; vnd schlach in mitt ??? sten armen mitt dem ort vff die hende. Vnd das stuck tryb och gen im, wenn er gen dir stant jn der hüt deß ochsen

    That is how the krump is to be struck to the hand, and the piece goes like so. When he strikes you at the opening from your right side with and ober or unter haw, so jump out of the strike with the right foot aginst him well onto his left side and strike him with ???? arms with the point onto his hands and that piece goes as well against him when he goes at you standing in eth guard/position of the ox.

    In Von Speyer
    Wiß daß der krumpt hauw ist der vier versetzen eyns wider die vier hutt, daß ist wie du krumpt solt hauwen zu den henden, daß stuck tribe also: wan er dir von diner rechten siten mit dem ober hauw oder unter hauw zu hauwett, so spring uß dem hauw mit dem rechten fus gegen ym woll uff sin lincke siten und schlag in mit uß gestreckten armen mit dem uff sin hend <after that the same bit as in VD)

    Know that the krump is the one of 4 deflection/parry done against the 4 guards, that is how you are to krump to the hands, the piece goes like so
    When he strikes you at the opening from your right side with and ober or unter haw, so jump out of the strike with the right foot against him well onto his left side and strike him with extended arms with the point onto his hands <after that same bit as in vd>
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