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  1. kurtsayin is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2011 3:15pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kempo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    The reason I ask is this:

    To me, this looks ridiculous. If you guys are not limb-breakers then it is all theoretical. You can't be training every week for 2.5 hours in real grappling that focuses on damaging your opponent instead of tapping out and not be constantly injured. I'm assuming that you guys are either utilizing the tap out and just playing up the deadly angle to sound cool, or you're cranking on each other like spazzes. Also, a system of tapping is absolutely essential if you really want to learn how to damage people with submission holds.
    I understand what you're saying. I don't think I was being clear. We certainly tap out when wrestling to train, but when it is being taught, the focus it to break the limb. Basically, we are not taught the sport side of a match and the goal is not to achieve mounts and such. Our focus is more on ending the ground fight asap because it's self-defense oriented. We often have rubber knives that have been chalked to show slashes and stabs, and whoever gets knifed first loses. The goal is not to Roll. The goal is destroy, but we are not limited to BJJ or any other standard rules. We can be in full mount and then throw a kempo elbow strike to the solar plexus. It is hard wrestling and stand-up sparring but no, we are not hurting each other in class very often.
  2. lionknight is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2011 3:19pm


     Style: Much striking, SAMBO, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kurtsayin View Post
    First of all - like I said before, can everyone please chill out by about ten degrees? I HAVE YEARS OF JUDO EXPERIENCE. I have said so from the beginning, and I am a decent grappler myself. I joined an SKK studio about 2 years ago to work on stuff other than grappling.

    When we do grappling class, we stretch/warm up half hour. Learn techniques about an hour (my instructor uses me or one of the other experienced wrestlers), and then we free wrestle, submission wrestle, and more for another hour. The purpose is always more focused on breaking the limb or damaging the opponent rather than tapping out, which is why I say it is complete self-defense oriented and WILL NOT lead to elite grappling champs.
    That statement right their ^^^ shows that you really have no idea about submission grappling. Unless you do nothing but break limbs every training session.
  3. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2011 3:21pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've been doing some reading on Villari, and I think his jujutsu and chin na claims are bullshit. He attributes both of those to Mongolian/Tibetan grappling, as they are derivatives of it. There's several problems here:
    1. It's a stretch to say that chin na is based on Mongolian grappling, and that jujutsu is based on either of these.

    2. Where the hell did he learn Mongolian/Tibetan grappling?

    3. There is no Mongolian/Tibetan grappling. Mongolia has its own style(s) of wrestling, unrelated to Tibet. Tibet has its own arts unrelated to Mongolia. I'd bet money that Villari did not seek out this particular training, when he could have easilly studied judo, JJJ, etc but did not.

    4. Villari claims to have studied jujutsu in his middle teens until he was 18. That's his JJ experience. A few years as a teenager hardly makes one an expert.

    Quote Originally Posted by kurtsayin View Post
    Basically, we are not taught the sport side of a match and the goal is not to achieve mounts and such.
    Good luck breaking limbs without developing an understanding of positional dominance.
    The goal is not to Roll. The goal is destroy, but we are not limited to BJJ or any other standard rules. We can be in full mount and then throw a kempo elbow strike to the solar plexus. It is hard wrestling and stand-up sparring but no, we are not hurting each other in class very often.
    How exactly do you train this? A video would be very helpful.
    Last edited by Permalost; 1/03/2011 3:25pm at .
  4. lionknight is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2011 3:23pm


     Style: Much striking, SAMBO, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kurtsayin View Post
    I understand what you're saying. I don't think I was being clear. We certainly tap out when wrestling to train, but when it is being taught, the focus it to break the limb. Basically, we are not taught the sport side of a match and the goal is not to achieve mounts and such. Our focus is more on ending the ground fight asap because it's self-defense oriented. We often have rubber knives that have been chalked to show slashes and stabs, and whoever gets knifed first loses. The goal is not to Roll. The goal is destroy, but we are not limited to BJJ or any other standard rules. We can be in full mount and then throw a kempo elbow strike to the solar plexus. It is hard wrestling and stand-up sparring but no, we are not hurting each other in class very often.
    So basically you're playing a game... like I don't know... a sport?
  5. kurtsayin is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2011 3:32pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kempo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I've been doing some reading on Villari, and I think his jujutsu and chin na claims are bullshit. He attributes both of those to Mongolian/Tibetan grappling, as they are derivatives of it. There's several problems here:
    1. It's a stretch to say that chin na is based on Mongolian grappling, and that jujutsu is based on either of these.

    2. Where the hell did he learn Mongolian/Tibetan grappling?

    3. There is no Mongolian/Tibetan grappling. Mongolia has its own style(s) of wrestling, unrelated to Tibet. Tibet has its own arts unrelated to Mongolia. I'd bet money that Villari did not seek out this particular training, when he could have easilly studied judo, JJJ, etc but did not.

    4. Villari claims to have studied jujutsu in his middle teens until he was 18. That's his JJ experience. A few years as a teenager hardly makes one an expert.
    I've agreed from the beginning that there are issues with Villari and he is obviously marketing to the masses at the expense of elite MA. I do believe Villari's Kempo is great - the grappling is a lot less robust in SKK, but, like I said, my SKK instructor does put some hard work into grappling, and we are encouraged to study the other principle arts on our own, too.

    For example, I have several books on Chin Na, and I also work out a couple times a month with a Southern Shaolin Mantis expert who knows a good amount of Southern Chin Na, too.

    Kempo is an "all in" art so anything else I learn from wushu, BJJ or whatever just adds to repertoire.
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2011 3:33pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kurtsayin View Post
    For example, I have several books on Chin Na, and I also work out a couple times a month with a Southern Shaolin Mantis expert who knows a good amount of Southern Chin Na, too.
    This explains a ton.
  7. kurtsayin is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2011 3:34pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kempo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Of the guys who've been criticizing me for SKK, who is the best fighter and why?
  8. kurtsayin is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2011 3:36pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kempo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    This explains a ton.
    lol... you guys should all work in a district attorney's office...
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2011 3:38pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kurtsayin View Post
    Of the guys who've been criticizing me for SKK, who is the best fighter and why?
    That's a red herring. Fight ability, or lack there of, has nothing to do with a weird history, wild claims, and erroneous beliefs in different styles.
    lol... you guys should all work in a district attorney's office...
    Actually, this comment applies more to you than anyone currently posting.
  10. kurtsayin is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2011 3:44pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kempo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    That's a red herring. Fight ability, or lack there of, has nothing to do with a weird history, wild claims, and erroneous beliefs in different styles.
    I just can't believe we CAN'T have a civil conversation. I'm happy to admit I am neither a deadly warrior nor a prize fighter, and I do not claim to be an expert on ANYTHING, and everyone on this forum keeps trying to call me out like I'm trying to re-write the history of the world.

    Everything I say is criticized, and everyone thinks it's soooo obvious that I suck. I haven't claimed to know anything extraordinary, and I've consistently mentioned from the beginning that there are serious issues with most Villari schools.

    Kempo, however, is a decent system, but the fighter's own determination is the deciding factor in any reasonably fair fight.

    Can we treat each-other like we're all human beings trying to chit chat some MA info?
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