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  1. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2011 7:51am

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     Style: Tai Chi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    You can't really argue it from general principle. Spartans armed large numbers of helots and took them to war, for example.
    Arming the helots for the defence of the pass of Thermopylae was an act of utter desperation.

    Helots were very rarely armed, and didn't receive any regular weapons training.
    Just like english serfs.

    That was the position of the vast majority of any campaigning military force of the period, no?
    Armies, relative to the non-military populations required simply to produce food, were tiny. We're talking about a completely unmechanised society here.
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  2. PointyShinyBurn is online now
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2011 8:20am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion View Post
    Arming the helots for the defence of the pass of Thermopylae was an act of utter desperation.

    Helots were very rarely armed, and didn't receive any regular weapons training.
    Just like english serfs.
    Source? The normal estimate of the ratio of helots to Spartan citizens derives from the battle of Plataea and Xenophon has them fighting at Leuctra as well.

    P.S. Thucydides has forces of helots at a whole series of major battles in the Peloponesian war (http://classics.mit.edu/Thucydides/pelopwar.mb.txt)
    Last edited by PointyShinyBurn; 7/11/2011 8:32am at .
  3. Moenstah is online now

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2011 9:18am


     Style: 空手 / &#2147

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Usually medieval armies were quite small, in the order of several hundred to two thousand strong.
  4. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2011 12:04pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moenstah View Post
    Ok, so I asked her. Her reply: she had seen about half of those skeletons involved, and she hadn't seen anything like it. She said that deformities at such an extent are caused by really regular practice (like on a daily, professional basis), the archer was a professional, skeletons with similar deformities (i.e.: significantly stronger right arms) were knights or Roman soldiers.

    Conclusion: peasants didn't train to the extent as a real archer.
    Interesting, but can you explain how the conclusion flows from the paragraph above it? I think I'm missing something.
  5. Truculent Sheep is offline

    KEIN HAAR APPROVED!

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    Posted On:
    7/12/2011 7:47am


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The answer is implied in Moenstah's post - not all skeletons exhumed from that time have those deformities. In particular, peasants and labourers, whose remains indicate a completely different lifestyle (and little or no fighting on battlefields).
  6. Moenstah is online now

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    Posted On:
    7/12/2011 11:54am


     Style: 空手 / &#2147

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truculent Sheep View Post
    The answer is implied in Moenstah's post - not all skeletons exhumed from that time have those deformities. In particular, peasants and labourers, whose remains indicate a completely different lifestyle (and little or no fighting on battlefields).

    You're correct. And I have this tendency to imply stuff when I write. Bad habit when studying, I can avoid it at work, but in my time off....
  7. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    7/12/2011 12:04pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ah, I see.
  8. GenericUnique is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/17/2011 1:16pm


     Style: WMA Lichtenauer Longsword

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A nice piece of research from "Talhoffer", rather nicely informing the "well, they practiced with steel without protection and were fine" line of argument

    Article Link
  9. Truculent Sheep is offline

    KEIN HAAR APPROVED!

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2011 2:57am


     Style: BJJ

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    True, but to clarify some of the incidents happened 'out on the street', while those that happened 'in-school' were certainly down to poor practice or simply really bad luck.

    The next step would be to see the injury and mortality rates of students attending these schools, from which a pattern or patterns could be inferred.

    Speaking from personal experience, we practice with relative care and mostly through drills but we still whack each other with wasters once in a while. 'Free Play' requires a fencing mask, vest, gloves and even a groin guard, and that's when you're going at it with wooden weapons, let alone 'blunts'.

    Conversely, Kendo has one of the lowest fatality rates in modern sports, mainly because everyone is dressed up like a tank and for good reason.
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