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  1. bigstu31s is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 11:14am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Ground fighting in Wing Chun

    Can someone please settle a dispute I am having with someone regarding ground fighting in Wing Chun
    I did Wing Chun for 5 years and never saw any evidence of it but someone I work with insists it exists and that my old WC instructor obviously didnít know the whole system.
    I canít find any evidence of ground fighting techniques existing in WC when I Google for it so though I would check with you guys before I go back to him

    thanks
  2. Vorpal is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 11:32am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You're going about it backwards. Its nearly impossible to prove that something dosen't exist, the onus should be on the one purporting it's existence to provide proof. I believe that even a modest perusal of older WC books will show a complete lack of any groundfighting instruction. I'm also sure that it will be quite easy to dig up some Anti-Grapple (TM) WC techniques that have been "discovered" since the arrival of MMA.
    Last edited by Vorpal; 2/11/2010 12:00pm at .
  3. chainpunch is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 11:44am

    Business Class Supporting Member
      Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bigstu31s View Post
    I canít find any evidence of ground fighting techniques existing in WC when I Google for it so though I would check with you guys before I go back to him

    thanks
    There is a lot of Wing Chun methods and techniques not documented (internet). Ground fighting exists in a few different sects of WC but the scope is limited in comparison to most grappling systems. Techniques are designed with the intent of escape and return to upright position and a handful of techniques that exploit either the WC fighter being on the ground or following up with a downed opponent.

    Its possible your friend knows some WC ground fighting but it would be something else if it was useable in modern day fashion or even worth mentioning.
  4. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 11:45am

    supporting member
     Style: Taijiquan/Shuai-Chiao/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There isn't any.
  5. knive is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 11:56am


     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've done the Chun for longer than I care to admit and am of the opinion that there's nothing in it that's could be described as 'groundfighting'. There are techniques that you *could* successfully apply on the ground (but, thinking about it, there are very few other MAs that wouldn't fit into this category). There are also techniques that allow you to take your opponent to the ground (but usually with you remaining standing). There's nothing though (and this is from a Judo perspective) that I'd count as ground fighting e.g. pins/osaekomi, escapes, locks requiring you to be on the ground etc. Everything I've ever seen done in WC has been from a standing position and has never required the attack or defence technique to go to the ground.
  6. bigstu31s is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 12:06pm


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've asked him to prove it and so far silence.
    I just think that some old Wing Chun instructor of his threw in a few Judo throws or subs and he assumes that this is then the real wing Chun.

    Thanks for the answers so far
  7. chainpunch is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 5:22pm

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      Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bigstu31s View Post
    I've asked him to prove it and so far silence.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigstu31s View Post


    Who knows what kind of proof you want. If you look up randy Williams you will see he made some videos and books in the late 80's and in there you will find some ground fighting material.

    BTW I dont subscribe to his particular method.
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 5:49pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ground fighting exists in a few different sects of WC but the scope is limited in comparison to most grappling systems. Techniques are designed with the intent of escape and return to upright position and a handful of techniques that exploit either the WC fighter being on the ground or following up with a downed opponent.

    Its possible your friend knows some WC ground fighting but it would be something else if it was useable in modern day fashion or even worth mentioning.
    Come on now, no semantic games in here.

    Ground fighting has been ADDED to many styles of WC from BJJ all the way to Catch as Catch Can wrestling. You need to clarify if he is saying it always existed.

    So, semantically, there is a possibility that there is a style of WIng chun that has INCORPORATED ground-fighting.

    Now, if you are talking sweeps, throws, and get up off the ground return to your feet, yes, Chun as well as other CMAs have these "ground fighting techniques.

    Who knows what kind of proof you want. If you look up randy Williams you will see he made some videos and books in the late 80's and in there you will find some ground fighting material.

    BTW I dont subscribe to his particular method.
    No BS MMA and Martial Arts - View Single Post - Seriously... why would anyone bash Randy Williams?
    Randy Williams:

    All that said, I have also been doing my best to try and bring WC to a new level in the 21st century with my own unique standup and ground techniques and also by reverse-engineering techniques and principles from the Royce Gracie system (he and I had 2 representatives in common in Richmond, VA that ran Gracie BJJ/CRCA Wing Chun clubs for years) as well as Gene LeBell, both of whom are martial artists I greatly admire. I do this with some pride, as I feel I am at least somewhat qualified to carry the WC torch into the future and show people some new ways to use the "infinite" extrapolations of its movements and principles. That may sound like sacrilege to many, but others in the history of WC were allowed to add things to and change the system, so why wouldn't someone who has invested this much time and energy to WC not qualify to do the same?
    He reversed engineered and worked with Gracies and Gene Lebell. You don't reverse engineer things that already exist in your system. So, no, Randy Williams isn't somebody to look to as an original line of "WC ground-fighting." Unless we are talking about get up of the ground/ striking from the ground techniques.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 2/11/2010 5:52pm at .
  9. chainpunch is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 6:38pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
      Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Come on now, no semantic games in here.

    Ground fighting has been ADDED to many styles of WC from BJJ all the way to Catch as Catch Can wrestling. You need to clarify if he is saying it always existed.
    Your right many WC people have added ground fighting after ground fighting came into the spot light. Everything you said is correct except that I am using Randy Williams pre UFC era (1989) not 21 century Randy Williams.

    Also please note that I have not made any claims on WC being in depth at ground fighting. No matter who's WC you study its a given that WC promotes the idea to get back on your feet.

    In short WC does have concepts on how to treat a floored opponent, what to do if you are the one on the floor, and a concept of how to get back up if someone is keeping you down. These concepts are pre Gracie era and need evolution.
    Last edited by chainpunch; 2/11/2010 6:39pm at . Reason: flipping font color
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 8:55pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Apparently you didn't read anything I wrote did you?

    I separated the two for clarity.

    There is ground fighting as in wrestling, BJJ, etc.

    Then there is this:
    Now, if you are talking sweeps, throws, and get up off the ground return to your feet, yes, Chun as well as other CMAs have these "ground fighting techniques.
    In short WC does have concepts on how to treat a floored opponent, what to do if you are the one on the floor, and a concept of how to get back up if someone is keeping you down. These concepts are pre Gracie era and need evolution.
    You just echoed what I said.

    Thank you.
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