New Electronic Scoring in Olympic TKD

**Alucard619** · Posted On: 2/11/2010 12:14am

Originally Posted by Alex

the thing is, people like to watch FIGHTS. the basic appeal of MMA is because it has more freedom and is closer to a fight than anything else so far. the reason no fucker wants to watch tkd is because its as realistic as an unrealistic thing from the unreal universe at the end of the disbelief spiral arm of the what the **** galaxy.

if nobody wants to watch you fight you SHOULD be concerned because it means your fighting style sucks and is unrealistic.

If I were getting paid to compete, you might have a point. I still think however that no fighter should have in his mind 'Hurr lol do people like to watch?!" if they are serious about developing themselves to be accomplished martial artists.

Some people find grappling arts like Judo or Jiu-Jitsu boring as hell. Are we to then question their effectiveness because some find two guys rolling around and applying pressure unappealing? Basically, I train because I enjoy it and so I can protect myself or someone close to me. Not to appease the often ignorant masses whom find no sort of mental stimulation other then two people beating the hell out of each other.

**Lindz** · Posted On: 2/11/2010 12:21am

But isn't that the point when you train punches and kicks?

**korean dragon** · Posted On: 2/11/2010 6:42am

Originally Posted by Alex

that is not the same as using a replay to see if someone actually got hit.

look, you keep bringing up how they are changing the rules etc to make wtf tkd more exciting, when they along with you somehow fail to realise that for it to be interesting to joe public (or anyone with half a brain) to the level of boxing or mma or kickboxing the entire ruleset needs to be overhauled. the tip tap point bullshit turns viewers off and its the same reason why nobody gives a **** about olympic boxing either, although at least the mindset in O boxing is more aggressive than the wait and counter snoozefest that is the WTF the consumer sees, and the reason its a cunthair away of being cut from the olympics.

the problem basically boils down to this- would you give a gymnast who did a shitty, awkward fumbling backflip the same score as someone who does a perfect one? no. why then, in TKD, if you fold someone in half with a roundhouse kick you get the same amount of points as if you just gave them a lovetap. thats whats broken. they need to just say **** it, adopt the 10 point must system, tell the judges that kicking domination is worth more than with the fists in the same way that in thai kness are worth more than hands, and you might have something people want to watch. a fight should be scored on who BEATS THE OTHER GUYS ASS not who lands the most. these can be two very different things. it breeds a different mindset.

About the replay option, from what I got out of the article it's going to be used for sudden death, and kam jons( warnings/deductions) to make sure there was in deed a foul.

About the tap kicks thats also something there trying to address by having a force requirement for the sensor to respond to. Now whether 62 lbs of force is sufficient is another debate, but it does prevent any tap from being scored

**Muerteds** · Posted On: 2/11/2010 12:28pm

My time with tae kwon do was briefer than some, longer than others. It was taught by an instructor who got is training through these guys: http://www.a-kato.org/.

I liked sparring nights. I didn't like the idea that we couldn't use knees and elbows, which we specifically trained to use. But, being as we were trying to not beat each other up too badly, I saw the point behind the decision. I remember throwing jabs at my opponent's face, and my instructor never saying "Boo." about it. However, when one of the visiting instructors would see it, he'd call me out on it, and tell me not to strike directly to the face so as not to get an infraction in a tournament. Ok, backfist it is, then.

All in all, though, no one ever got called out for good, solid kicks. Or, ahem, punches. Or backfists. Or ridge hands, knife-hands, hooks, uppercuts, clinching in close and punching, or tripping. We were told not to attack the legs or the back, as that would get us in trouble at tournaments.

I went to a few tournaments. It was always so varied as to what was allowed. I punched a guy in the face, and got a penalty. Knocked him across the mat (he turned to look at my fist incoming to his ear-hole). When he started bleeding later, I got DQ'ed. The nice coach there who'd taken me under his wing to fight for his team never said a cross word to me about it, as he knew my instructor. Just accepted that I was going to punch people as well as kick them.

I remember being knocked the **** out at one tournament by, of all things, a crescent kick. No penalty, and keep going. At another, I made a guy double over in pain at a groin kick (allowed), that the judges refused to acknowledge. I left a crescent kick sitting on his ear, and looked at the judge in a fury over being denied any scores, despite the fact I knocked that guy out of the ring. My opponent, standing on one leg to avoid body kicks (sweeping was disallowed) reached out (my leg on his shoulder) and tapped me with a backfist. Point, and match, to him.

I remember my frustration at all of this. And then it was pointed out to me that my sensei never came to these matches. Why? He hated the bullshit. He loved to scrap, and couldn't stand the stupid tappy-tap rules, and rampant favoritism readily apparent. But he wasn't about to hold me back from trying it for myself.

What is the point of this? Why is this pertinent to the discussion? Because of this- the system that the WTF uses is broken. Tae kwon do and karate (and kung fu, etc.) should have absolutely nothing stopping them from competing in the same tournaments. Of the few tournaments I got to compete in the kumite in, none were style-specific. It doesn't have to all look like kickboxing. The allowing of lighter hand protection vs. boxing gloves, shin and foot pads, head protection, and mouth guards could still allow for a high ratio of *thump* without brain damage. Tae kwon do guys who insist on some arbitrary "80%" kick rate could do just that. More pragmatic people could concentrate on what worked for them, instead of slavish adherence to style.

I know, I know. Asking karateka and tae kwon do practitioners to put aside their differences, and work for a unified rule set is blasphemy. Asking more styles to use their entire skillset (not unlike Enshin karate), and cross compete with said skill sets, concentrating on striking, thus creating a more viable Olympic-level sport is nigh-on a pipe dream. But really, having tae kwon do, karate, and san shou, all vying for a place in the games makes no sense when one set of rules would do it. :(

Then I wouldn't have to look at a lame-ass electronic scoring vest and just think to myself, "If you kick the fucker hard enough, no one will question if you hit him."

**Nefron** · Posted On: 2/11/2010 7:11pm

Originally Posted by Muerteds

At another, I made a guy double over in pain at a groin kick (allowed), that the judges refused to acknowledge.

I have never heard of something like this. What tournament was this at? When?

**Muerteds** · Posted On: 2/12/2010 1:07pm

Let's see... Terry Dorsey Karate Tournament in, what, 1997? If I go home and get the details off the trophy they gave me, maybe I can get more info. I know, the tournament said karate, but tae kwon do schools were there (as well as kung fu).

It was in North Texas, north of Ft. Worth, I think Saginaw. It was the second (and last) time I'd been to that tournament. The rules were point sparring, tae kwon do centric. So, no attacks to the legs or back. No knees or elbows. No contact to the face unless you were brown belt or higher. You could punch and kick to the face, you just had to control it and not touch. You could contact anywhere on the helmet. And, yes, you could kick the groin, cups required.

Because there was no sweeping, my opponent stood on one leg in some kind of crane stance, so his knee blocked his torso. Then he'd lean forward and do a fast backfist to score. I got sick of not being able to hit his torso (couldn't aim for the back, or just knock him down), so I side kicked him out of the ring a couple times. Nothing I did would score- the judges would make the signal that they saw nothing. He got worried about being knocked around though, and actually started to move around. I used a reverse round kick and caught him full on in the groin (I aimed for it). The cup rang. He bent over. The male half of the audience did the natural "oooohhhh" response. And, all the judges did the "we didn't see it move". No score, though they did re-set us in the middle.

I've seen a pretty diverse rule set for stuff like that. But that was the only one they specifically told me groin kicks were allowed.

**korean dragon** · Posted On: 2/12/2010 3:27pm

If that was indeed what happened then the only guess I can give is that you looked pissed or frustrated because of what the other guys doing. I know that alot of Taekwondo tournaments won't score you points if it looks like you are angry and lose control. The same thing happened to a friend of mine who was kicking some dudes ass in and out of the ring, but because he got pissed they wouldn't score his points, and he eventually got DQ'ed for "Kicking to hard." yeah it sucks but it seems like your being un-sportsman like they won't count your points.

Either that or they just didn't like you, but that couldn't be it right.:thumbsup:

**korean dragon** · Posted On: 2/12/2010 3:50pm

Now in a ibeit roundabout way to try and get this thread back on track, I'd like to point out that this is something the new system also addresses by eliminating judge bias. This way if it's legal and hits hard enough you get a score no if's and's, or but's.

**Muerteds** · Posted On: 2/12/2010 9:34pm

Upon review of the trophy, the tournament was the Texas Rose Tournament, 10MAY97.

You know, I don't feel it was an "unsportsmanlike" call. Just a way to not acknowledge hits. And that's why the scoring armor bugs me. If I had been able to hit the guy in the legs, or sweep, or even target his back, I would have had a lot more tools to deal with the problem than "hit harder".

By that same token, to hit hard enough to make your technique be noticeable is done all the time in kyokushin, enshin, san shou... Why should tae kwon do be different? I like the tae kwon do I learned. I hate seeing it watered down to this tag level.

**korean dragon** · Posted On: 2/12/2010 11:35pm

Originally Posted by Muerteds

Upon review of the trophy, the tournament was the Texas Rose Tournament, 10MAY97.

You know, I don't feel it was an "unsportsmanlike" call. Just a way to not acknowledge hits. And that's why the scoring armor bugs me. If I had been able to hit the guy in the legs, or sweep, or even target his back, I would have had a lot more tools to deal with the problem than "hit harder".

By that same token, to hit hard enough to make your technique be noticeable is done all the time in kyokushin, enshin, san shou... Why should tae kwon do be different? I like the tae kwon do I learned. I hate seeing it watered down to this tag level.

Again I find it interesting that they said no leg kicks but kicking the nuts is ok. That being said I wasn't trying to say the solution is kick harder, what I am saying is taekwondo is what it is. The new system is supposed to help by
1) requiring people not to just tap, but to acctually kick their opponent.

2) to remove judge bias and prevent controversy like what happened with Nia Abdullah in the olympic qualifiers, and what happened to Steven Lopez at the olympics.

3) to encourage fithers to aim for the head with the new three point rule. This means that fighters will force fighters to really go after their opponents.

Is it a perfect system no, but how hard you spar has and always will depend on your own school and what they allow you to do. Yes many school teach their fighters to play tag, but some don't and still succeed in tournaments it's just a matter of how you play the game.