Traditional Chinese Sword League and Tournament

**CMA-sword** · Posted On: 2/10/2010 7:45pm

Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra

Knowing how to throw kicks and knees while fighting with weapons is a science that can really throw off your opponent's game. ......Even if they were low on the point scale, they could be worth it for disrupting your opponent's rhythm and confidence if you were decent enough at being sneaky with them.

I'm sure you're right, and that's why we allow it in the rules---I think it's just a case that none of us have focused on that aspect yet. Something to work on, definitely.

Here's a clip of a full bout, so folks can see what one looks like:

http://www.youtube.com/v/ENLp4YoDsak&hl=en_US&fs=1

**Lindz** · Posted On: 2/10/2010 11:12pm

*cringe* ref can't tell which way the exchange went so they have infinite do overs.

**Conde Koma** · Posted On: 2/10/2010 11:19pm

the rules seem to make scoring/winning difficult to determine.

also, what's to stop fencers from just going in and owning everyone?

**u1ysses** · Posted On: 2/10/2010 11:26pm

I don't know anything about CMA, but from my fencing and limited ARMA experience, a lot of this looks really questionable to me. The ugly foot drag in the lunge at 1:45, or a lot of the twirly stuff that is done at mid-range (can't see how it's a good idea to take the blade all the way behind you in a fancy windmill motion when your opponent is in step-lunge equivalent distance). The guy in the red does get the occasional well timed circular slice, so he's at least not giving up his face with those moves as often, but his center of gravity is so high...

But take whatever I say with a grain of salt. The good ARMA stuff I've seen is a lot tighter than this, but some of the mid-range ARMA and SCA stuff is about on par.

**Lindz** · Posted On: 2/10/2010 11:31pm

Originally Posted by Conde Koma

the rules seem to make scoring/winning difficult to determine.

also, what's to stop fencers from just going in and owning everyone?

why should they be stopped?

**CMA-sword** · Posted On: 2/11/2010 7:46am

Hey guys,

thanks for the comments. I'm actually the guy in the tan coat in the video, so I can answer some of your comments. First of all, why doesn't a fencer just come in and own the tournament? First of all, they're more than welcome to put their money where their mouth is and try---our league is open to anyone. But to answer more seriously, I've fenced epee for a number of years, and what we're doing here is considerably different. Epees are not realistic-weight weapons, and don't have realistic POBs, so they play much differently than actual historical weapons. If an epeeist tried to just pick up one of our realistic-weight wooden swords and do his moves at full speed without any prior training, he'd most likely injure his wrist. Also, our rules stipulate that the cut or thrust has to hit with realistic force, so the light touch that would depress the point and set off the light in epee would not be counted here. Thirdly, in an epee bout, you can get hit numerous times with solid thrusts in the the head and torso, and still win the bout. In our league, getting ONE clean, solid hit to the head, neck or torso ends the match instantly, as a "kill" (that's how I lost this bout at the end)---so it's much riskier for us to try questionable moves.

As far as the "windmill" move, that's from traditional Chinese swordsmanship (you can see it in the public Yang jian form), and it's also in historical European swordsmanship (I believe it's called a moulinet). If you're using really light weapons, and the rules don't require solid contact, then you generally wouldn't do moves like this, and you don't want to bring the point behind your body. But in historical swordsmanship, with heavier weapons, you may need to get more force into your cut to make sure it's effective---that's why those things are in historical swordsmanship, and in our league. Although others in the league have more experience than I in this matter, all of us have handled a number of antique jians and daos, and all of us have done some degree of test cutting with realistic weapons. Those are the weapon characteristics that we're trying to maintain in this league, as much as possible with a reasonable safety factor.

Just as an aside, my intention with the "windmill" move in that clip was that I initially moved in and faked a low cut to his knee. I was exposing my head (an 'invitation' in fencing), knowing that he'd cut down at that target, at which point I'd come up and deflect with the "windmill" and strike to his head. Again though, dealing with these heavier weapons, my deflection wasn't powerful enough to bounce out his sword, and even after my deflection he continued down to my head (although I had taken a lot of the power out of it, which is why the refs didn't award the kill to either of us)

As far as the lunge (and okay, maybe my form wasn't PERFECT:icon_joke ), that was also changed by the heavier weapons. If it was a light epee, with a flexible blade, and all I had to do was make contact, it would be easier to lunge. But with this heavier sword (that doesn't bend), and I have to hit him solidly, I wasn't comfortable with one hand, and put my second hand on for power and stability, this (and the fact that I'm only 5'7" ) meant that my lunge was a few inches shorter and didn't reach (and subsequently, I was terribly exposed---if he had been a bit more accurate, he would have ended the bout there).

As far as the charge that this looks like "mid-range" and not "high-range" quality, you're certainly right and you'll get no argument from me there. The European historical sword enthusiasts are far ahead of us, and doing this stuff with Chinese weapons and techniques is really in its infancy. I would describe all of us in this tournament only as "intermediates", and as I mentioned above in regards to using strikes and throws, we haven't even really explored all the options in our own rules to the full extent.. But the only thing I would stress (and I've done both types of competition) is that working with realistic weight weapons and requiring solid contact makes for a VERY, VERY different game than bouts with light weapons and light contact.

And if anyone wants to get in there in the future and give it a go, we'd love to have you!

**CMA-sword** · Posted On: 2/11/2010 7:52am

Originally Posted by Lindz

*cringe* ref can't tell which way the exchange went so they have infinite do overs.

Some are thrown out because the ref couldn't tell what was happening, but it's also a case that our rules require a clean, solid hit to be counted (like the one that ended the bout) ---so if that doesn't happen in an exchange, no one is going to be awarded anything.

**u1ysses** · Posted On: 2/11/2010 9:04am

The ankle/foot roll is an invitation to injury, I really recommend steering clear. To me it's indicative of modern sport fencing going for the point with no regard for position/recovery/defense from the strike.

Contrary to popular perception, an epee is a smallsword simulator, not a rapier simulator, and IS weighted in the same range, unlike foils and sabers, which are basically antennas. Tip depression in epee is around 500g I think. Not killing blows, but duel touches.

If that's just one match, I think your rules for calling hits are too conservative. I see too much complacency about being hit in an effort to get a more solid hit. This is what ^'m talking about with the windmill, the fighters are too close, and exposing target at the incorrect range, as you found when you couldn't get into position in time.

I have used HEMA longsword wasters before, and the weight of the weapons does not require wide swings or drastic arm pumping, nor do blows suddenly require excessive force todeflect - again, body mechanics and leverage take precedence - if your angle is wrong your arm will collapse. If it's correct, they're not just going to whack through without a bind.

Have you guys looked into the feasability of aluminum wasters or their equivalents? I don't like wooden swords for the same reason I don't like ARMA style padded swords - there is no binding, or proper blade on blade contacft because of the bounce, where as metal weapons behave differently.

**nomamao** · Posted On: 2/11/2010 9:24am

I guess I'm not going to be the first to say I don't like the fight footage displayed, but I've also never used a jian.

I believe that too much is left up to judges interpretation for it to be any fun.

Imagine judges interrupting a lazer tag match to decide who was hit and who wasn't every 2 seconds, and I'd say these bouts are comparable.

Unfortunately, with all the "not using swords as clubs" talk that's gone on in the OP's reason for the rules, I'd rather see that happen as I believe it's more realistic, even for Chinese swordplay.