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  1. GajusCaesar is offline
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    pwning ninjas since 2004

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    Posted On:
    2/13/2004 10:13pm

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     Style: Street Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by TaeBo_Master
    There is one solid truth: If you eat more than your maintenance calories you gain weight, if you eat fewer than your maintenance calories, you lose weight. It doesn't matter if 100% of these calories come from protein, fat, or carbs. More you gain, Fewer you lose.

    But the additional impact is on health. Eating 100% of any of those nutrients is of course going to be fatally unhealthy. The body is designed to work with a certain balance, and drastically upsetting that balance is going to have side-effects. Whether dropping the carbs is simply going to affect your energy and your mood (a side effect of Ketosis), or whether there are more long term effects probably requires more study to show either way. But it has been shown countless times that eating a balanced diet in moderation with moderate exercise will inevitably result in weight loss and health benefits.

    Of course the key isn't going on a diet, or labeling one type of food "bad" or "good"... the key is in your lifestyle. Unless you can change your lifestyle, any diet attempt is going to be temporary at best.
    Actually the "calorie balance" theory isn't exactly true. That is one of the reasons that there was such resistance to Atkin's ideas. The "calorie balance" theory seems to make perfect sense on the surface. However, the entire basis for protein diet is that you can eat a different dietary balance to actually alter your metabolic hormone balance and "trick" your body into wasting more calories. You can actually increase your total "calorie count" (which actually does not correlate well with how much weight you lose/gain) and by increasing your basal metabolic rate, still lose weight.

    Of course, exercise augments this increase a great deal and anyone who thinks they should diet without exercise is a moron.
    Deluxe247 tells it like it is:

    you ninja fags just got owned in a bad way. this thread should go to the classics and mega thread forum due to the sheer size of taebo_master and gajusceaser's penis. (with which they just smacked across these ninja's faces)
    from:

    This Classic Thread - http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9653&perpage=15&pagenum ber=14
  2. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    2/13/2004 11:05pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I just want to mention how much I appreciate having GajusCaesar and Weechey posting to this thread.
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  3. weechey is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2004 12:04am


     Style: TKD BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why thanks Wastrel. I've now moved up to featherweight, I've noticed. I might add that the Bullshido forum is incredibly fun and interesting, and a great diversion from the doldrums of work. Your prior invitation to me has been quite fruitful, and I have you to thank for it.

    GajusCaesar's comments are well noted. Exercise is a huge component of weight loss, and IMO the medical profession has not done enough in this area. A good example is a recent article in a medical journal that basically said "the more intensely you exercise, the more weight you lose". My first response was "DUH!" It took us till NOW to figure this out? Athlete's knew this for decades - make it centuries...but sometimes in the medical sciences we're such sticklers for "proof" that we kind of lose sight of common sense. (Another example...chicken soup really does great stuff for the common cold...see, Mom was right all along, and didn't need an M.D. to figure it out).

    It's a fair assumption that the people on this forum are quite active physically, so instead of talking about exercise compliance, I'll mention a bit about the "type" of exercise. My own personal belief is that a good regimen should have a mix of progressive resistance training, aerobic exercise, and a few "high intensity" days thrown in per week. Time, of course, is a major factor for those of us with busy lives, which is one of the reasons that I like resistance training (weights) so much...if you have a well thought out regimen, you can burn much more calories per session with resistance training than you can with many other forms of exercise.

    The medical literature in general is kind of weak when it comes to what kind of exercise is helpful...the exercise physiologists have done a much better job. A good book that I've been using lately is "Serious Strength Training" (2nd ed) by Tudor Bompa, Mauro Di Pasquale, and Lorenzo Cornacchia. It's well written, with training programs that make sense and won't burn you out. At my age, burnout is a serious issue, and I want to make sure that any regimen I choose is something I can take into my Medicare years (it'll be a while, fortunately, before that happens). If others have used the book, I'd be interested in their opinions.
  4. weechey is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2004 12:10am


     Style: TKD BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    GajusCaesar

    However, the entire basis for protein diet is that you can eat a different dietary balance to actually alter your metabolic hormone balance and "trick" your body into wasting more calories. You can actually increase your total "calorie count" (which actually does not correlate well with how much weight you lose/gain) and by increasing your basal metabolic rate, still lose weight.
    __________________________________________________ __

    Agreed...in fact, it's always interested me that trainers and athletes often look at food as if they were medicines, that need to be taken in the right "doses". While I tend to be cautious about things like vitamins/supplements, I like the general idea that a balance of nutrient types, along with portion control, are as important as calories itself.
  5. GajusCaesar is offline
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    pwning ninjas since 2004

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2004 12:34am

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     Style: Street Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes. We are in agreement weechey. Portion control is important and helps a lot when people are trying to lose weight. The whole crazy vitamin/supplement crowd really annoys me. It is a physiologic fact that, unless you are actually malnourished, taking extra vitmans/supplements will in no way increase your performance, strength, health, or speed.
    Last edited by GajusCaesar; 2/14/2004 4:19am at .
    Deluxe247 tells it like it is:

    you ninja fags just got owned in a bad way. this thread should go to the classics and mega thread forum due to the sheer size of taebo_master and gajusceaser's penis. (with which they just smacked across these ninja's faces)
    from:

    This Classic Thread - http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9653&perpage=15&pagenum ber=14
  6. Jenfucius is offline

    Shogun of Long Island

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2004 10:00am

    Join us... or die
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by weechey
    Regarding Jenfucius' statements (I'm not referring to your post signature)...the insulin hypothesis is not bullshit. You may not know this as a medical student, but there are many people in Medicine and Endocrinology who take the Metabolic Syndrome (Insulin resistance is common to all of the metabolic syndromes, including Syndrome X described by Reaven in the late 1980's or early 1990's) quite seriously. I'll grant you that the issue of causality versus pure association is still being debated, but the idea that insulin resistance is an important contributing factor to abnormal weight gain is becoming more mainstream among physicians.
    you may not know this as a dumbass, but clinically significant insulin resistance = type II diabetes. so stop talking out of your ass.
  7. Jenfucius is offline

    Shogun of Long Island

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2004 10:02am

    Join us... or die
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    you just got PWN3D#@! by ockam's razor!
  8. weechey is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2004 3:34pm


     Style: TKD BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Jenfucius quote:

    you may not know this as a dumbass, but clinically significant insulin resistance = type II diabetes. so stop talking out of your ass.
    ----------------------------------------------------
    Insulin resistance, I believe, was first described in the 1970's with liver biopsies and/or fat biopsies, during which insulin receptors were actually quantified. It was noted that heavier people had fewer insulin receptors, and from this came the idea of "down regulation" of insulin receptors as one became more obese.

    The concept Syndrome X came out in the early 1990's, which characterized a group of people with symptoms and signs consistent with coronary artery disease, but normal coronary angiograms. These people were thought to have "small vessel disease", and I'm pretty sure (though it's been a long time since I've graduated med school, so perhaps someone could help me out here) that insulin resistance was noted as part of the original syndrome X. Over the years, this has been expanded to become the Metabolic Syndrome (a very good link is at the American Heart Association...check this out: http://www.americanheart.org/present...dentifier=4756), which is characterized by a) central obesity (apple shaped instead of pears), cholesterol abnormalities, borderline hypertension, a chronic inflammatory state (characterized by high levels of inflammatory markers like C-Reactive Protein), and did I forget to mention? Insulin Resistance! People with the Metabolic Syndrome are a much higher risk for heart disease than the general population, and no, they do not have type II diabetes. T2DM would be one of the endpoints of the Metabolic Syndrome.

    What does "clinically significant" mean? Well, several well designed studies have shown a link between fasting insulin in non diabetics and such disorders as a) obesity, b) hypertension, c) coronary artery disease. Here in the U.S., these conditions contribute significantly to the health care burden, and will make up a large number of the patients that Jenfucius will see when he graduates from medical school. As such, I would argue that clinically significant insulin resistance does not necessarily = T2DM. Perhaps what he means is that there are few studies yet that demonstrate screening for fasting insulin in the general population has any real benefit. On that, he would be right. We are not sure yet, if drug treatment with insulin lowering drugs like Metformin, or the Thiazolinediones would really improve someone with insulin resistance. There was a tantalizing hint in the recently published results of the Diabetes Prevention Program, in which people with impaired glucose tolerance (not diabetes, but close) had a 20% reduction in developing diabetes if they took Metformin (an insulin lowering drug typically used for diabetics). Also, there are some small studies and anecdotal reports of people using Metformin to help non-diabetics with Metabolic Syndrome lose weight.

    BTW, Ockam's razor is a term we use in Medicine to teach medical students to think of the "one cut"...in other words, instead of coming up with a bunch of different diagnoses to explain several symptoms, have one diagnosis that will explain it all. I frequently use this term when I teach medical students and residents at my institution (who knows, Jenfucius, perhaps I'll run into you...I assure you that I hold nothing personal and you will be afforded courtesy and respect). Several researchers noted that individual risk factors such as hypertension, central obesity, insulin resistance, had a synergistic effect TOGETHER, as opposed to when they occurred individually, hence the concept of Metabolic Syndrome. So, you could argue that Metabolic Syndrome is the Ockam's razor of heart disease for each of these risk factors :-)

    Lastly, I say this for Jenfucius' benefit. I do not know you personally, and quite frankly, I don't care where you end up in your career. I would be extremely amused if you ended up at my institution (If you plan on being in the NY area, that is more probable than you think), where I have a somewhat prominent position in the training program. This is free advice...if you want to impress your clerkship directors, and perhaps get into that prestigious residency program, I would suggest that you start by getting to know your facts, and avoid the somewhat simplistic generalizations you've been making. Academic physicians are a bit of a nasty lot...we're highly political, and at the institutions I've been at, we tend to hold grudges, and get very impatient with medical students who have a habit of over-simplifying. You can do with this advice as you wish. The only reason I offer it is because as a medical educator I feel an obligation towards others in my profession.
  9. GajusCaesar is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/14/2004 3:47pm

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     Style: Street Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thank you for your education of Jenfucius, Weechey. His rash comments tend to make medical students look bad. As far as my endocrinology course was concerned, insulin resistance is a major risk factor for the development of type II diabetes and did not actually qualify as diabetes until it reached a certain level that tipped someone over the edge. For Jen's sake, I really hope he doesn't spout off like that during his clerkships. He'll be in for a bad bad time. . .
    Deluxe247 tells it like it is:

    you ninja fags just got owned in a bad way. this thread should go to the classics and mega thread forum due to the sheer size of taebo_master and gajusceaser's penis. (with which they just smacked across these ninja's faces)
    from:

    This Classic Thread - http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9653&perpage=15&pagenum ber=14
  10. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2004 4:09pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's Occam...Morons. :D
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
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