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  1. xoaxos is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2004 10:11pm


     Style: muay-thai/judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Amp
    Heart disease.

    source?

    didn't think so. the fact is, being *overweight* is a significant factor that leads to heart disease, while on the aktins diet triglycerides are actually reduced... leading to a healthier heart.

    Increased hormones from meat.

    sounds scary. any evidence that this is more detrimental than being obese?

    Less years to live.

    complete bs, you have no evidence to back this up.

    please tell me that a man who loses 200 lbs on the atkins diet, reduces triglycerides, and reduces cholesterol will have less years to live?

    many more.

    enlighten me
  2. Nid is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2004 10:53pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How do we know he was following his own advice?
  3. weechey is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2004 11:24pm


     Style: TKD BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here is a nice link to an abstract in the New England Journal of Medicine regarding the Atkins diet...
    goto www.nejm.org, click on "search" type in "atkins" and go to the article titled "A Randomized Trial of a Low-Carbohydrate Diet for Obesity"
    In this study, people on the Atkins diet lost more weight in 6 months than people who just followed a conventional low fat diet, but at the end of a year, there was no real difference in weight. The interpretation is that although success may be achieved short term, weight maintenance continues to be a problem (i.e. adherance to an appropriate diet plan).

    Regarding Jenfucius' statements (I'm not referring to your post signature)...the insulin hypothesis is not bullshit. You may not know this as a medical student, but there are many people in Medicine and Endocrinology who take the Metabolic Syndrome (Insulin resistance is common to all of the metabolic syndromes, including Syndrome X described by Reaven in the late 1980's or early 1990's) quite seriously. I'll grant you that the issue of causality versus pure association is still being debated, but the idea that insulin resistance is an important contributing factor to abnormal weight gain is becoming more mainstream among physicians. However, Jenfucius is correct when he states that we should " pump some iron, girlie men!". Weight training with the right diet promotes increased growth hormone levels, which is associated with reduced body fat, and increased lean body mass.

    The right diet is an issue here...the Atkins diet initially did not allow for a substantial amount of carbohydrates, which as any lifter knows is important if he wants to have energy for the intense regimen. IMO, Atkins was on the right track in recognizing that certian foods exacerbate underlying insulin conditions more than others...hence the avoidance of carbs and emphasis on proteins. A carb free diet, however, is just not feasible, and ultimately weight loss that is not associated with "weight cycling" requires an eating plan that one enjoys, and can maintain for years. This requires a change in attitude more than anything else. It means choosing the good stuff instead of McDonald's fries all the time.

    Regarding the claim that the Atkin's diet does not harm the heart...well, all of the studies done were in small samples of people, and for short periods of time. These designs were not statistically capable of detecting whether damage to the heart could be detected (these are rare events, and need large numbers of people to be followed for a long period of time), but there are plenty of other observational studies that show that excessive "bad fats" increase your risk of heart disease, so I for one do not jump on the Atkins bandwagon so quickly.

    Regarding his health...Atkins had a Body Mass Index of 50 (from newspaper reports), which puts him in the morbidly obese range (obese enough to have health consequences). However, at his age (70), obesity may have had less clinical significance simply b/c "if it ain't killed ya yet, it ain't gonna kill ya". That simple statement was borne out in a NEJM study in 1999 following about 12000 people in a cohort over at least 10 years from the American Cancer Society. As for his "heart condition"...I wasn't his physician, but the rumor was that he had a permanent pacemaker...most likely for something we call "sick sinus syndrome", when the pacemaker of the heart peters out, and needs mechanical assistance. This is common in the elderly, and generally unrelated to coronary artery disease, which is what gives people heart attacks. But, I guess we'll never really know that part of the story :-)
  4. Southpaw is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2004 11:30pm

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     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by xoaxos
    [B]Heart disease.

    source?

    didn't think so. the fact is, being *overweight* is a significant factor that leads to heart disease, while on the aktins diet triglycerides are actually reduced... leading to a healthier heart.
    I hate when people ask for sources when Google is so damn easy to use...here:


    The Truth About High-Protein Diets download this factsheet


    High-Protein Diets

    Maintaining an ideal body weight is important for good health, and the right diet can facilitate this goal. Unfortunately, promises of fast, easy weight loss draw many people to fad diets. High-protein, carbohydrate-restricted diets are no exception. Popular in the 1970s and again today (as U.S. obesity rates reach an all-time high), the Atkins Diet and similar programs fail to address critical health implications of diets that emphasize animal products.

    What the Weight-Loss Research Shows

    Studies from Duke University,1 the University of Pennsylvania,2 and Philadelphia Medical Center3 suggest that average weight loss with high-protein diets during the first six months of use is approximately 20 pounds—not demonstrably greater than results from other weight-loss regimens. Additionally, a review of 107 research studies on carbohydrate-restricted diets found that the amount of carbohydrate consumed had no effect on the degree of weight loss.

    High-Protein Health Risks

    Ketosis
    High-protein diets are designed to induce ketosis, a condition that occurs in uncontrolled diabetes mellitus and starvation. When there are not enough carbohydrates in the diet to provide glucose to the cells that rely on it as an energy source, ketone bodies are formed from fatty acids. An increase in circulating ketones can disturb the body’s acid-base balance, causing metabolic acidosism, which can lead to hypophosphatemia, resorption of calcium from bone, osteoporosis, and kidney stones.6

    Colorectal Cancer
    Regular meat consumption increases colon cancer risk by about 300 percent, according to research from Harvard University. High-protein diets emphasize animal products and therefore are typically low in dietary fiber, which facilitates the movement of wastes, including carcinogens, out of the digestive tract, and promotes a biochemical environment within the colon that appears to be protective against cancer.8

    Heart Disease
    Typical high-protein diets are extremely high in dietary cholesterol and saturated fat. The effect of such diets on serum cholesterol concentrations is a matter of ongoing research. However, evidence indicates that meals high in saturated fat impair arterial compliance. A recent study showed that the consumption of a high-fat meal (ham-and-cheese sandwich, whole milk, and ice cream) reduced systemic arterial compliance by 25 percent at three hours and 27 percent at six hours.9

    Kidney Disease
    High-protein diets are associated with reduced kidney function, which, over time, can lead to permanent loss of kidney function. These diets are associated with a significant decline in kidney function, according to research from Harvard University monitoring 1,624 women participating in the Nurses’ Health Study. While kidney damage was found only in those who already had reduced kidney function, this condition is far from rare and currently affects as many as one in four U.S. adults. Plant protein, on the other hand, had no harmful effect.10

    Osteoporosis
    Very high protein intake is known to encourage urinary calcium losses and has been shown to increase risk of bone fractures in research studies.12,13

    Diabetes Complications
    With diabetes, kidney and heart problems are particularly common. The use of diets that further tax the kidneys and may reduce arterial compliance is not recommended.

    Nutritional Deficiencies
    The American Heart Association states, “High-protein diets are not recommended because they restrict healthful foods that provide essential nutrients and do not provide the variety of foods needed to adequately meet nutritional needs. Individuals who follow these diets are therefore at risk for compromised vitamin and mineral intake, as well as potential cardiac, renal, bone, and liver abnormalities overall.”7

    A Healthier Way to Lose Weight

    Of the many ways to lose weight, one stands out as by far the most healthful. When meals are built from a generous array of vegetables, fruits, whole grains, and beans—that is, healthy vegetarian choices—weight loss is remarkably easy. And along with it come major improvements in cholesterol, blood pressure, blood sugar, and many other aspects of health. The answer is simple: Cut out the foods that are high in fat and devoid of fiber, and increase the foods that are low in fat, rich in fiber, and most nutritious.

    References:
    1. Westman EC, Yancy WS, Edman JS, Tomlin KF, Perkins CE. Effect of 6-month adherence to a very low carbohydrate diet program. Am J Med 2002;113:30–6.
    2. Foster GD, et al. A randomized trial of a low-carb diet for obesity. N Engl J Med 2003;348:2082-90.
    3. Samaha FF, et al. A low-carbohydrate as compared with a low-fat diet in severe obesity. N Engl J Med 2003;348:2074-81.
    4. Ornish D, Brown SE, Scherwitz LW, Billings JH, Armstrong WT, Ports TA. Can lifestyle changes reverse coronary heart disease? Lancet 1990;336:129–33.
    5. Bravata DM, Sanders L, Huang J, et al. Efficacy and safety of low-carbohydrate diets: a systematic review. JAMA 2003;289:1837-50.
    6. Wiederkehr M, Krapf R. Metabolic and endocrine effects of metabolic acidosis in humans. Swiss Med Wkly 2001;131:127–32.
    7. St Jeor ST, Howard BV, Prewitt TE, Bovee V, Bazzarre T, Eckel RH; Nutrition Committee of the Council on Nutrition, Physical Activity, and Metabolism of the American Heart Association. Dietary protein and weight reduction: a statement for healthcare professionals from the Nutrition Committee of the Council on Nutrition, Physical Activity, and Metabolism of the American Heart Association. Circulation 2001;104:1869–74.
    8. World Cancer Research Fund/American Institute for Cancer Research. Food, Nutrition, and the Prevention of Cancer: a global perspective. World Cancer Research Fund/American Institute for Cancer Research, Washington, DC, 1997, pp. 216–51.
    9. Fleming RM. The effect of high-protein diets on coronary blood flow. Angiology 2000 Oct;51(10):817–26.
    10. Knight EL, Stampfer MJ, Hankinson SE, Spiegelman D, Curhan GC. The Impact of Protein Intake on Renal Function Decline in Women with Normal Renal Function or Mild Renal Insufficiency Ann Int Med 2003;138:460-7.
    11. Nestel PJ, Shige H, Pomeroy S, Cehun M, Chin-Dusting J. Post-prandial remnant lipids impair arterial compliance. J Am Coll Cardiol 2001;37:1929–35.
    12. Goldfarb DS, Coe FL. Prevention of Recurrent Nephrolithiasis. Am Fam Physician 1999;60:2269–76.
    13. Abelow BJ, Holford TR, Insogna KL. Cross-cultural association between dietary animal protein and hip fracture: a hypothesis. Calcif Tissue Int 1992;50:14–18.
    14. Feskanich D, Willett WC, Stampfer MJ, Colditz GA. Protein consumption and bone fractures in women. Am J Epidemiol 1996;143:472–9.
    15. Reddy ST, Wang CY, Sakhaee K, Brinkley L, Pak CY. Effect of low-carbohydrate high-protein diets on acid-base balance, stone-forming propensity, and calcium metabolism. Am J Kidney Dis 2002;40:265–74.
    16. Gin H, Rigalleau V, Aparicio M. Lipids, protein intake, and diabetic nephropathy. Diabetes Metab 2000 Jul;26 Suppl 4:45–53.
    17. Holt SHA, Brand Miller JC, Petocz P. An insulin index of foods; the insulin demand generated by 1000-kJ portions of common foods. Am J Clin Nutr 1997
  5. Southpaw is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2004 11:34pm

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     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Increased hormones from meat.

    sounds scary. any evidence that this is more detrimental than being obese?
    What? Are just arguing with yourself now? Where did I make any comparisons about which is "more detrimental"?




    please tell me that a man who loses 200 lbs on the atkins diet, reduces triglycerides, and reduces cholesterol will have less years to live?
    enlighten me [/B]
    I'm not talking about some mammoth of a man who needs to lose 200 pounds, I'm talking about the vast majority of people. If a huge guy needs the atkins diet to lose 200 pounds, great. Lose the weight and then learn how to eat right. ****. If you've got 200 pounds to lose, you might as well do the crack diet. You'll lose the weight (and your teeth), and once you have, you can go to crack rehab and be normal again.

    Just because the diet makes you lose weight...dosn't mean that it is a healthy diet.




    ..."In my experience, unless you're willing to throw out decades of research, you cannot ignore that diets chronically high in saturated fats are linked to heart disease," said Dr. Keith-Thomas Ayoob of Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York. Ayoob is also a spokesman for the American Dietetic Association...
  6. blankslate is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2004 11:35pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I work with people who look like skeletons from that diet and they were HUGE before. I don't care...I like the Pritikin diet (Eat to Win) when I actually care.
  7. CaptHitMan is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2004 11:39pm


     Style: Name It

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For every piece of research you introduce, there's another piece of research proving otherwise. Lots of animal rights groups have paid for "research" to disprove high protein diets effectiveness, and Dr. Atkins paid for research to prove how effective it is. It's been brought up about the high carb diet existing in Asian countries, but at the same time, the french consume low carbs, high fat, high protein foods just as much as Asians eat rice. There's research to prove and disprove low fat diets, low carb diets, low calorie diets, and hell .. even a CHOCOLATE diet.

    Incidentally Atkins didn't die of a heart attack, he died of complications from a brain hemorage. He did have a heart attack, which after he recovered claimed was from a genetic heart valve problem.
  8. Southpaw is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2004 11:41pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Capt. is right. You can find citations for anything.
  9. xoaxos is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2004 11:54pm


     Style: muay-thai/judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    exactly, i wasn't expecting some google search article on why high protein is bad, thats ridiculous science.... please no more articles, show me evidence that a person on the atkins diet was directly effected by the diet. the fact is there is none. people are losing weight and getting healthy.

    only the initial part of the atkins diet is really low in carbs, and it still allows you to eat a salad and vegetables eveyday. after you lose the weight you up the carbs until your weight maintains, this is usually upwards of 50-60 carbs a day... which is A LOT. especially considering its all coming from vegetables.

    think back to primitive man... did they bake bread, and chomp down on cereal and pasta? no. they ate meat, vegetables and fruit.

    the government food pyramid is the biggest piece of trash ever thrown our way and they are desperatly trying to defend it.
  10. weechey is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2004 11:58pm


     Style: TKD BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    CaptHitMan
    For every piece of research you introduce, there's another piece of research proving otherwise.
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    I sort of agree with you. However, what made Atkins stand out was that the overwhelming weight of accepted evidence (by the medical establishment, who have pretty rigorous standards of proof) went against his advice. This is not to say that Atkins was wrong...I just don't think that we can say for sure. Truth is, much of nutritional medicine/epidemiology is highly observational in nature, and there are lots of problems with the designs of prior studies (inaccurate measures, selection bias, etc). The "French connection" you mention refers to observational geographical studies that looked at cause-specific mortality rates in France and the U.S., and also compared body mass indices. The French clearly were better in all respects, and since they had a high fat/low carb diet the obvious explanation is that this is diet related. A similar reasoning was used with Asians. However, geographical studies are severely limited by a number of confounding factors (French and Asians are more physically active, French have less health disparities b/c of national health care system, Asians in China die of TB before they die of heart attacks) that cannot be controlled for with geographical designs b/c they don't use the individual as the unit of analysis, but rather a group of people as the unit of analysis.

    You're right that Atkins died of complications from a subdural hematoma (brain bruise) that occurred after a fall. However, the issue of coronary disease is an important one, since it is clearly related to things like cholesterol, free fatty acids, and the like, all of which are abound in the Atkins diet. The newspapers never really get the story right, or tend to miss the forest for the trees. There are LOTS of different kinds of heart disease, but heart ATTACKS come from blockage of the coronary arteries - so you can have all sorts of heart disease (like mitral valve prolapse, or sick sinus syndrome, or long QT syndrome) that don't really have much to do with what leads to that horrible heart ATTACK that we hear people die from. The valvular heart disease that is associated with heart ATTACKS is aortic stenosis, since this particular valve disorder restricts blood flow to the coronary arteries. However, the aortic valve's cross sectional area needs to get pretty darn small before it starts to do that, so I'd be surprised if that were the case and it didn't hit the news for a celebrity like Atkins.
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