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  1. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 11:23am

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    You remember what happened to a certain Greek Philosopher for corrupting the youth, right?

    (On the plus side, said philosopher could say, at least, that it was an "all natural" product. ;) )

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
    I also fail to acknowledge the gods of the city.
  2. lklawson is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 3:01pm


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra View Post
    I also fail to acknowledge the gods of the city.
    Here, drink this. Don't worry. It's "all natural." ;)

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  3. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 5:30pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Mmm, flowery...
  4. pobayou is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2010 10:40pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: ju-jitsu/cqb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Eudemic View Post
    Why was there so much emphasis on using the knife-hand for striking during WWII? Wasn't boxing still popular?
    My grandfather grew up in the Great Depression. He said that football and boxing were really the only "contact" sports in his youth that were available.

    He fought Golden Gloves to the NC semifinals sometime in the late 1930's.

    After serving three years in the Navy, he was discharged and sworn into the OSS (Jan. 1945). While on a destroyer bound for Calcutta, India, he was trained in a CQB similar to the Fairbairn style. He told me the chop hands worked as double muscle memory if you added a knife. My grandpa liked these strikes and he was in love with boxing prior to WW2. To box, I guess you would need a push dagger or something curved. He carried a Fairbairn/Sykes dagger and 2 trench knives for blades, (he was issued these).

    Grandpa served out his tour in Kunming, China until the end of the war. In all, his CQB training in unarmed, blade, and firearms was 90 days. His unit was under SACO. Check it out... interesting history.
  5. slower is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2010 10:52am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The knife or ax hand as taught to U.S. military in WW II probably came from W.E. Fairbairn. According to Wiki, he was a Brit stationed in Shanghai, China, in 1907. He studied Jiu-Jitsu and Chinese martial arts. He retired from there in 1940 as Assistant Commissioner at 55 years of age. He went on to teach combatives to Allied Forces in WWII. At some point in his Shanghai career, possibly fairly early, he became head of police training.

    Shanghai was one rough place during Fairbairn's tour. Wiki sez he was involved in 600 non-training fights. I've seen elsewhere he had something like 200 of his policemen were killed in action.

    He boiled his MA training down to some specific techniques that worked. And they trained hard at those basic techniques. Everything from fighting, controlling a prisoner, to pistol-craft.

    I've read he broke his systems down to subsystems after war. Teaching the killer techniques more to the military. And less lethal techniques to civilians.

    The general name for the style is "Combatives." Or Close Quarters Combat. In years past people called it Combat Judo. Some old references were just Judo or Dirty Fighting. I'm gaining the opinion that some of the pre-WWII style terms were not as highly defined in the West as they are today. As today Judo basically means sport Judo. And I doubt you'll be learning to gouge an eye out in the first lesson of sport Judo. Fairbairn's kicks are basically shin stomps, foot stomps, and groin. Bone breaking stuff by design.

    There is a good chance that Fairbairn's books are out there in the public domain. Esp the ones written by the military, as they are always public domain. Unless some company re-sells it at an outrageously high price and in the process copyrights the reprinted old material under their name. So you can have the exact same book in both free public domain version and copyrighted version. So be careful if you DL an e-book copy. It is very easy to re-copy right an old book. Just add your company name, like, copyright 2010 Rip-Off Re-prints, to the book or each page. That changes it. And it is automatically covered. Ya might have to add or change a sentence or picture. Do your homework. Don't DL someone else's copyrighted stuff.

    Fairbairn also designed a famous WWII dagger w/ Sykes. It has a collectible value. Just know that the real knife had a weak tip and didn't hold up as well as the legend indicates. I believe a Bowie design replaced it at some point in time. Probably first by personal choice by the more experienced Commandos. The Bowie's spine makes a stronger knife w/ a stronger tip than a thin tipped dagger. The evolved Bowie is about as far as knife evolution got before handguns replaced the long knife as a sidearm. Don't confuse a fighting Bowie w/ a big old heavy brush chopper camp Bowie. Bowie's are interesting in that the more the features are exaggerated, the more handsome and appealing they become. Fighting Bowies tend to be long and slim. Looking more like an evolved bayonet than a brush chopper. The are FAST. And balance is forward the guard an inch or more. Look at Ontario Knife Co's Hell's Belle for an example.

    If you search Combatives or CQC you'll find people like E.A. Sykes, Charles Nelson, G.E. Perrigard, Carl Cestari, Rex Applegate and many others, as they trained many people who continued training after the war. Knife or ax hand, cupped hand, palm, palm claw, hammer fist, stomps, elbows, joint locks, escort ... yada.

    Every major European country pretty much had people in Shanghai before WWII. They all learned stuff there. So there are other routes for the knife hand to come to U.S. or any Euro forces, but probably less documented or generally well known.

    I'm pretty sure I've see pre-1900 references to Jiu-Jitsu in western literature, like Bartitsu.
  6. pobayou is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2010 12:29pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: ju-jitsu/cqb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by slower View Post
    The knife or ax hand as taught to U.S. military in WW II probably came from W.E. Fairbairn. According to Wiki, he was a Brit stationed in Shanghai, China, in 1907. He studied Jiu-Jitsu and Chinese martial arts. He retired from there in 1940 as Assistant Commissioner at 55 years of age. He went on to teach combatives to Allied Forces in WWII. At some point in his Shanghai career, possibly fairly early, he became head of police training.

    Shanghai was one rough place during Fairbairn's tour. Wiki sez he was involved in 600 non-training fights. I've seen elsewhere he had something like 200 of his policemen were killed in action.

    He boiled his MA training down to some specific techniques that worked. And they trained hard at those basic techniques. Everything from fighting, controlling a prisoner, to pistol-craft.

    I've read he broke his systems down to subsystems after war. Teaching the killer techniques more to the military. And less lethal techniques to civilians.

    The general name for the style is "Combatives." Or Close Quarters Combat. In years past people called it Combat Judo. Some old references were just Judo or Dirty Fighting. I'm gaining the opinion that some of the pre-WWII style terms were not as highly defined in the West as they are today. As today Judo basically means sport Judo. And I doubt you'll be learning to gouge an eye out in the first lesson of sport Judo. Fairbairn's kicks are basically shin stomps, foot stomps, and groin. Bone breaking stuff by design.

    There is a good chance that Fairbairn's books are out there in the public domain. Esp the ones written by the military, as they are always public domain. Unless some company re-sells it at an outrageously high price and in the process copyrights the reprinted old material under their name. So you can have the exact same book in both free public domain version and copyrighted version. So be careful if you DL an e-book copy. It is very easy to re-copy right an old book. Just add your company name, like, copyright 2010 Rip-Off Re-prints, to the book or each page. That changes it. And it is automatically covered. Ya might have to add or change a sentence or picture. Do your homework. Don't DL someone else's copyrighted stuff.

    Fairbairn also designed a famous WWII dagger w/ Sykes. It has a collectible value. Just know that the real knife had a weak tip and didn't hold up as well as the legend indicates. I believe a Bowie design replaced it at some point in time. Probably first by personal choice by the more experienced Commandos. The Bowie's spine makes a stronger knife w/ a stronger tip than a thin tipped dagger. The evolved Bowie is about as far as knife evolution got before handguns replaced the long knife as a sidearm. Don't confuse a fighting Bowie w/ a big old heavy brush chopper camp Bowie. Bowie's are interesting in that the more the features are exaggerated, the more handsome and appealing they become. Fighting Bowies tend to be long and slim. Looking more like an evolved bayonet than a brush chopper. The are FAST. And balance is forward the guard an inch or more. Look at Ontario Knife Co's Hell's Belle for an example.

    If you search Combatives or CQC you'll find people like E.A. Sykes, Charles Nelson, G.E. Perrigard, Carl Cestari, Rex Applegate and many others, as they trained many people who continued training after the war. Knife or ax hand, cupped hand, palm, palm claw, hammer fist, stomps, elbows, joint locks, escort ... yada.

    Every major European country pretty much had people in Shanghai before WWII. They all learned stuff there. So there are other routes for the knife hand to come to U.S. or any Euro forces, but probably less documented or generally well known.

    I'm pretty sure I've see pre-1900 references to Jiu-Jitsu in western literature, like Bartitsu.
    Great post!

    Carl Cestari trained my instructor John Kary. All of the previously mentioned instructors are solid for resources. Unfortunately, they all are dead, save Kary. It must have been a real privilege to train with any of these guys back in the day.

    As for Fairbairn, I remember showing a copy of GET TOUGH written by him to my grandfather. He said "yeah, that's what we learned, but we spent almost a month learning throws too." I'm guessing these were judo based. He showed me the correct way to perform a tomoe nage when I was 12.

    Another good resource to have is anything written by John Styers. I think COLD STEEL is now back in print. :toothy5:

    Fairbairn's DEFENDU and SCIENTIFIC SELF DEFENSE were reprinted by Paladin a few years ago. Fairbairn's forward in these books state that he was trained in Kodan (I think that's the correct spelling) Ju-Jitsu and Chinese Boxing. He was the first Westerner to earn black belt in Kodan Ju-Jitsu. The latter book was at the time an updated version of the former.
    Last edited by pobayou; 2/12/2010 12:34pm at .
  7. Cdnronin is offline

    Ghost of Kawaishi

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2010 1:18pm


     Style: judo, parenting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Eudemic View Post
    Why was there so much emphasis on using the knife-hand for striking during WWII? Wasn't boxing still popular?
    Much of the WWII combatives were based on the Fairbairn/Applegate/Sykes
    version. The EOH is a quick and easy technique to teach, has less chance of seriously damaging the hands(if a soldier punches someone, and breaks his hand, he can't use his rifle effectively. if he strikes with a knife hand strike, he may hurt his pinkie, but he can still pick up a gun or a knife). Boxing blows are effective, no doubt, but when you have limited time to teach large groups of recruits who may or may not have experience( Jack Dempsey writes of teaching 100's of recruits at a time), you choose techniques that give the most bang for the buck.
  8. Cdnronin is offline

    Ghost of Kawaishi

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2010 1:32pm


     Style: judo, parenting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    After the war, Fairbairn continued to teach the military and various police departments, not civillians to the best of my knowledge. The techniques being taught to the Cyprus police(one of Fairbairn's last postings) were straight out of GET TOUGH!

    The Americans had the 4th marines stationed in Shanghai from 1927-1941, some of whom had the opportunity to train with Fairbairn. However the edge of hand blow was not introduced to America by Fairbairn, as it was already being taught by various ju jitsu practioners including Irving Hancock, as demonstrated in several of his books, such as Jiu Jitsu combat tricks(1904).
  9. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2010 1:59pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think it's worth noting that the Orient didn't have the monopoly on edge of the hand strikes. They are described in some very old fighting manuals from Europe before there was an East Asian martial arts influence.
  10. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2010 3:59pm


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Many of the classic CQC books have passed into public domain, but not all of them. There is a raw-image pdf of the paladin reprint out there. It is, technically, under (CR) but I think they'd have a hard time enforcing it because it's a facsimile copy of the original.

    Here's a link to Cosneck's "American Combat Judo" CQC manual
    . Free download, etc.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
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