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  1. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2010 9:48am

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes, in the sense of "turning things over". That simile goes back a long way into WMA history, re. revolving or spinning actions with swords, etc.
  2. MMAMickey is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2010 10:26am

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     Style: Boxing.MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would be interested to see if a vertical fist could provide anything close to as much power on a straight right as a horizontal fist. I can't make it happen but then again I'm conditioned to the modern way.

    It just seems to me that the sport has evolved and things such as vertical fists are being resurrected under the premise of the 4nc13nt d34dly. but then again, this is just my opinion I'm willing to accept im wrong if someone has evidence to the contrary, I don't get anything out of corkscrewing either but that doesnt mean people cant make it work.
  3. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2010 5:22pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMAMickey View Post
    I would be interested to see if a vertical fist could provide anything close to as much power on a straight right as a horizontal fist. I can't make it happen but then again I'm conditioned to the modern way.

    It just seems to me that the sport has evolved and things such as vertical fists are being resurrected under the premise of the 4nc13nt d34dly. but then again, this is just my opinion I'm willing to accept im wrong if someone has evidence to the contrary, I don't get anything out of corkscrewing either but that doesnt mean people cant make it work.
    If anyone has a dynamometer handy and the resources to do a proper test, I think that would be a really interesting experiment. My instinct is that it's a percentages game; perhaps you can/feel freer to hit harder in terms of force applied if you're wearing gloves because you're proportionately less likely to damage your own fist with the strike. It could be argued that bareknuckle punches are optimized for sharp "cracking" strikes rather than knockdowns.

    I don't think it has much to do with 4nc13nt d34dl1ne55 though, more a desire to "get it right" from the historical accuracy point of view.
  4. MMAMickey is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2010 5:40pm

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     Style: Boxing.MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    My instinct is that it's a percentages game; perhaps you can/feel freer to hit harder in terms of force applied if you're wearing gloves because you're proportionately less likely to damage your own fist with the strike.
    So tech-wise would the vertical fist provide more support for BK? I suppose it prevents you punching across the body so much so makes a boxer's fracture less likely?
  5. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2010 6:17pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tech-wise we can demonstrate that an overwhelming majority of historical BKB champions and coaches advocated vertical fist punches to the face; they tended to reserve horizontal fists to soft targets (neck and stomach). I suspect that had more to do with preserving the un-gloved fist than with power generation, especially in that the body mechanics don't change much either way (drop-step, feet/hip/waist/etc. pivot and so-on); we're dealing with how that force is transmitted, and (IMO) what comes down to likelihoods re. a given type of punch damaging the punching fist, with and without gloves.

    IMO the only significant advantage of the vertical fist is that it keeps the elbow of the punching arm aligned within the compass of the torso, rather than allowing it to turn slightly outwards. With that extra skeletal/mechanical support, a hard punch may be less likely to torque the punching fist inwards and downwards, always assuming that the punch lands squarely and primarily with the middle two knuckles. In practice it's always going to be a bit of a crap-shoot because the actual angle of successful strike against an active target depends on so many uncontrollable variables, which is (IMO) probably why the 19th c. boxers defaulted to vertical fists in these situations.
  6. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/08/2010 8:45am


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    Quote Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra View Post
    Hmm, I never realized that "moulinet" and "mulling" had any kind of connection. Neat.
    The action has some similarities but the intent behind the two are vastly different.

    Moulinets with the sword (saber) are typically used to build power because of the weight of the weapon and to adjust the tempo (timing) of the strike to coincide with flying in and out from a measure (range) that helps prevent instant hits just by moving the hand (time of the hand).

    Milling the fists in boxing has more to do with not telegraphing. At least two period authors clearly state that you keep the fists in constant motion so that the opponent doesn't know when you're going to strike based on the movement of the fists. Sort of the same idea as the Dog Brother's "Snakey Stick" applied to old school boxing. :)

    Though a milling motion can sometimes be used to gain power, that type of usage is fairly rare and, imo, restricted to pretty much only one blow (one variation of the Rounding Blow). Though, ims, the Russians seem to use circular power generation a lot

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  7. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/08/2010 8:54am


     Style: Bowie

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMAMickey View Post
    So tech-wise would the vertical fist provide more support for BK? I suppose it prevents you punching across the body so much so makes a boxer's fracture less likely?
    To add to what DdlR has already said, I've found that the pistol-grip fist tends to stabilize the wrist a lot more too. I believe it helps reduce (not eliminate) the danger of a sprained wrist.

    It's easy to demonstrate too with a pseudo-knuckle-pushup

    Set your fists shoulder width apart in the horizontal and just hold at the full extension (but don't lock the elbows) with the fists directly under the shoulders. Rock your knuckles back and forth. They don't seem to want to lock in any position but the index and middle knuckles seem ever so slightly more stable. The fist really seems to want to perch on the middle knuckle alone. Not comfortable (to be honest, I can't do it on one knuckle).

    Now do a full extension with the horizontal fists. You practically can't rock forward onto the first two knuckles but the bottom three are extremely stable. Bet you could hold that position for a long time.

    Pay particular attention to how the wrists feel and how the fatigue. There's simply more wrist stability in the pistol grip position.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  8. shaolin pimp is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/08/2010 12:17pm


     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can generate decent power using vertical fist, using some hip rotation into it, but whether I can actually use it is another matter, I think I would leave myself right open. But even if I could throw it without being countered, I doubt it could KO someone.

    I did wing chun which of course uses the vertical fist, and 3 bottom knuckles, I always felt just using VF is extremely restrictive to your punching range/mobility.

    Another point is your guard, for example a traditional MT guard, and using VF, would be hard to do, I don't know if VF can be used effectively without that guard they used back then.

    I have the jack dempsey pdf book, he talks about a power line that "THE POWER LINE RUNS FROM EITHER SHOULDER-STRAIGHT DOWN THE LENGTH OF THE ARM TO THE FIST KNUCKLE OF THE
    LITTLE FINGER, when the fist is doubled. Remember: The power line ends in the fist knuckle of the little finger on either hand. Gaze upon your
    "pinky" with new respect. You might call that pinky knuckle the exit of your power line- the muzzle of your cannon"

    he also says "If your punch is landed correctly, in power-line fashion, the three knuckles-pinky, second and middle-will share the pressure
    and distribute it over the three" Although this is prob true of horizontal as well.

    I think it's easier to aim with the big knuckle using horizontal over vertical fist.


    I would like to see someone do some kind of study on this.
  9. jspeedy is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/02/2010 1:49pm


     Style: FMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for the replies. So I gather most here suspect the classical "palms up" or vertical fist was most likely used because it left the puncher less vunerable to fracture the hand in a BK fight. Of course this seems to bring us back to the impossible "which knuckles are best?" debate.

    Did the current style of palms down jab/cross even exist in the classic BK fights? When did it become the predominant method of punching? I thought I read a reply mentioning that they were used to strike soft targets but I was unsure of when this it used.
  10. MMAMickey is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/02/2010 3:46pm

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     Style: Boxing.MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I heard that too. btw i've started using a VF for an occasional jab/lead straight in boxing just because it sometimes gets through the guard better. so it still has some use
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