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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kneedan View Post
    Cool - perfectly fair questions anyway. We can bore you rigid with suggestions for Trad JJ schools in the UK - most won't be Koryu so it depends on what your friend really wants. If he wants something 'properly' Japanese with the associated cultural and linguistic trappings it might be easier to find an Aikido school along those lines. If you do want some Gendai/ Goshin Ju Jitsu suggestions to pass onto your friend let me know where in the country he is and I'll see what I can find out.
    Appreciate the offer. He has currently settled on training at a goju dojo but I'm not sure if he has attended yet. He is in Bristol if you know of anywhere there. I used to live there myself and couldnt turn up anything other than the goju place or kevin o'hagans club that might vaguely fit the bill. no koryu that I could see. if it was me I'd be selling myself on a corner in eastville in order to finance training with both pedro bessa and italo ferreira 5 days a week, but hey - thats just me.

    The reason for the thread really was less about helping him and more about filling in my own knowledge gaps as our discussion raised some areas of interest for me. I've hounded the poor **** with info on training, the rest is up to him!

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    If he wants the authentically Japanese version of BJJ it's called Judo. It's cheap and widley available, I hear.
    This is what I said.

  3. #13

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    So would I be correct in thinking that:-

    1) if its not a recognised koryu art it's most likely a mix of stuff trickled down from various sources (some koryu some gendai) and adapted/mixed over time? (I guess this ones pretty obvious)

    2) JJJ's introduction to the uk comes from trad schools being established in liverpool and london by native japanese instructors and from knowledge imparted by returning servicemen?

    3) the majority of non koryu jjj in the UK is now WJJF in origin? (based on blundell/clarke syllabus)

    as an aside, I used to train with the WJJF as a kid. My retrospective impression of them was that the martial arts they teach are very poor in terms of practical use.

  4. #14
    PointyShinyBurn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by southstarfist View Post
    Appreciate the offer. He has currently settled on training at a goju dojo but I'm not sure if he has attended yet.
    Karate has been Japanese for less time than Jiu Jitsu has been Brazilian.

  5. #15
    PointyShinyBurn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by southstarfist View Post
    So would I be correct in thinking that:-

    1) if its not a recognised koryu art it's most likely a mix of stuff trickled down from various sources (some koryu some gendai) and adapted/mixed over time? (I guess this ones pretty obvious)
    Yep. Though authentic koryu lineage as opposed to just hybridised Judo/Shotokan/Aikido is probably very rare.
    Quote Originally Posted by southstarfist View Post
    2) JJJ's introduction to the uk comes from trad schools being established in liverpool and london by native japanese instructors and from knowledge imparted by returning servicemen?
    The most prominent among the native Japanese was Yukio Tani who was converted into a Judoka and founded the Budokwai. The other major import in terms of Budo was Kenshiro Abbe who did Aikidio, Kendo and, you guessed it, Judo. I don't think any 'returning serviceman' came back with documented rank in anything except.... you can probably guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by southstarfist View Post
    3) the majority of non koryu jjj in the UK is now WJJF in origin? (based on blundell/clarke syllabus)
    There's the Jitsu Foundation, which is basically degenerate Judo in origin and I don't think came from Clarke or the WJJF.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    Karate has been Japanese for less time than Jiu Jitsu has been Brazilian.
    Indeed.

    Lets not even touch upon the merits of selecting an art upon how Japanese/nationality of choice it is either.

    I'm 100% certain that his desire to be involved in a Japanese art stems predominantly from a lack of understanding about what martial arts actually are coupled with an affinity for the romanticised iconography of wise, white bearded, asian masters by which a lot people are mesmerised. Its certainly not the product of logical research or cultural interest. Thats fine by me.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    There's the Jitsu Foundation, which is basically degenerate Judo in origin and I don't think came from Clarke or the WJJF.
    Yeah I gather that it's german/australian in origin and has been said to bear a resemblence to 'shorinji something' but has no historical ties to it.

  8. #18

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    There's a Jitsu Foundation club at Bristol University: http://www.bris.ac.uk/Depts/Union/JuJitsu/

    I just found this on the internet which looks like a Shorinji/ Aikido/ Kitchen Sink hybrid, which I can't vouch for either way:

    http://www.jujutsu-bristol.org.uk/About-School

    I certainly wouldn't knock Judo as a choice of martial art. Or Goju for that matter. I've not trained at any WJJF clubs so I can't comment on how they implement their syllabus (which is pretty close to ours - I train with Jikishin Ju Jitsu, a BJJAGB member). Naturally I'm not going to agree that the syllabus itself is bad :-)

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kneedan View Post
    There's a Jitsu Foundation club at Bristol University: http://www.bris.ac.uk/Depts/Union/JuJitsu/

    I just found this on the internet which looks like a Shorinji/ Aikido/ Kitchen Sink hybrid, which I can't vouch for either way:

    http://www.jujutsu-bristol.org.uk/About-School

    I certainly wouldn't knock Judo as a choice of martial art. Or Goju for that matter. I've not trained at any WJJF clubs so I can't comment on how they implement their syllabus (which is pretty close to ours - I train with Jikishin Ju Jitsu, a BJJAGB member). Naturally I'm not going to agree that the syllabus itself is bad :-)
    yeah, I'm less than impressed with what I've seen from 'the jitsu foundation'. take a look at the some of this:

    YouTube- Jitsu Atemi Open Competition 2006

    YouTube- Jitsu Session 1

    YouTube- Mary Bishop Nationals V

    The second link you posted seems like it's affliated with the jitsu foundation also. its also claiming connection to shorinji jujutsu, a connection which I think has been refuted though not 100% sure (remember reading on e-budo).

    yeah unitil recently I was training with a BCA affiliated club that broke away from the WJJF along side my BJJ. I'd say it was 50/50 with the syllabus there, the most effective techniques being the throws and judo based pin downs etc.

  10. #20

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    Shorinji Kan Jiu-Jitsu is the name of TJF's base JJ style. There might be other styles with that name, but TJF aren't pretending to be them. It's not and doesn't claim to be a koryu style.

    The linked videos in previous posts are a little deceptive, given that TJF "atemi" just one devision of competition. It's kind of like just showing forms competition from a karate style that also does knockdown kumite. TJF holds grappling training and competitions with full resistance. Their top level competitions here look like this:

    YouTube- Randori Nationals Heavyweight Gold medal throwndown 2009

    Obviously you're not going to get the same level of expertise as you might at Judo, BJJ or wrestling, but it ain't nothing, and I can't fault them for structuring things to make it accessible.

    I've trained with TJF guys. They do a lot of breakfalls. Lots and lots and lots. I personally think it's a bit much, but it's a big part of the culture. The standard syllabus is pretty straightforward for what it is and I saw nothing I felt to be implausible. Here in Peterborough they seemed like pretty nice guys, all around. Certainly, I've seen people stick with it and develop some practical skill who might not have lasted in an environment that ramped up resistance right away.

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