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  1. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2010 1:00pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jiraiyac View Post
    Obviously, I've misunderstood the nature of this site, which seems to be the antithesis of true martial arts philosophy.
    Could you expound a bit on your concept of "true martial arts philosophy" a bit? It's a subject that fascinates me.

    It's something I've been interested in for nearly my entire life, and has led to training in all sorts of martial arts, getting a degree in Philosophy from the University of Maryland, and living and training in a Buddhist temple.

    I'd love to hear anything you might have to say on the subject.
  2. Styygens is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2010 5:03pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jiraiyac View Post
    Yes, like No_BS, all of my grading certificates are co-signed by Heishichiro Okuse (as 15th Soke of Iga-ryu Ninjutsu) and Kazuo Saito (as 16th Soke). There is, of course, the photographic evidence I provide on my website. In fact, I was present with Saito sensei when he received calls from (or called) Okuse sensei many times.
    Thank you for clearing this point up. It was no doubt a minor point, but I was trying to understand the relationships.

    Quote Originally Posted by jiraiyac View Post
    Beyond that, I make no claims beyond what Saito sensei himself has told me or written on his website about the Iga-ryu ninjutsu lineage.
    I admit, I have been very busy this week, so I will have to go back and read through the material available on your website, and Saito's website -- assuming it is in English. However, your statement inidicates that Saito provided you with more information than he has posted on his website. I hope you will be able to use this information to explain Iga Ryu Ninjutsu.

    May I assume that by redirecting me to Saito's website, your position is that your sensei's account of an Iga Ryu Ninjutsu history and lineage is true and accurate -- at least to the best of your knowledge?

    Quote Originally Posted by jiraiyac View Post
    Obviously, I've misunderstood the nature of this site, which seems to be the antithesis of true martial arts philosophy.
    Although these do seem to be your first posts, your account has been open since 2007. I find it somewhat hard to believe that you haven't visited since opening your account, yet just happened to stumble into a thread discussing your teacher.

    How is BS.net "the antithesis of true martial arts philosophy?"

    Quote Originally Posted by jiraiyac View Post
    You're after intellectual honesty, Styygens? If you're deadly serious about your dedication to learning the history of ninjutsu, you wouldn't be trawling through troll boards.
    There is no need to insult the website's many users by painting them with a broadbrush. After all, you've had an account here yourself since 2007. Ad hominem attacks will gain you nothing, and instead hurt your credibility.

    BTW, my serious interest in ninjutsu makes me something of the odd man out on this website. I am very interested in seeing any group prove a direct connection with a historical ninjutsu lineage. I haven't seen one provide incontrovertible proof yet. But I'm not familiar with your school.

    Quote Originally Posted by jiraiyac View Post
    Ask the people at the Iga ninja museum. Enquire at Iga city with Okuse's relatives and acquaintances. If you want the link between Okuse and Seiko Fuijta, you'll find it there.
    Someday, I will. Visiting Japan and several sites associated with Japan's martial history is on my bucket list. Right now, I have many other commitments and obligations that take priority. But I take a long view regarding my training and education. In the meantime, I am asking you about the Iga Ryu Ninjutsu lineage. You have claimed expertise in the school, and -- even better -- you speak English.

    I am confused about this Iga Ryu lineage passed from Seiko to Okuse. All of the published accounts I have seen indicate that Seiko left no ninjutsu students, let alone an heir. He himself stated that "ninjutsu would die" with him. Moreover, it is my understanding that Seiko held high rank in Wada-ha Koga Ryu Ninjutsu, Nanban Satto Ryu Kempo, and Daien-ryu. None of these are related to Iga Ryu. What was his Iga Ryu Ninjutsu history?

    Quote Originally Posted by jiraiyac View Post
    Beyond my personal experience, I can't provide the answers you're supposedly looking for.
    But you have answered some questions. You cleared up my confusion over the rank certificates and signatures. I'm sure you can answer more, based on your personal knowledge and experience.

    Let me lay out some clear questions:

    1. Again, may I assume that by redirecting me to Saito's website, your position is that Saito's account of an Iga Ryu Ninjutsu lineage is true and accurate -- at least to the best of your knowledge?

    2. Can you, please, briefly describe the Iga Ryu Ninjutsu lineage or practice passed to Okuse from Fujita Seiko, based on your personal experience with the teachings of the school?

    3. Have you seen documented proof of an Iga Ryu Ninjutsu lineage that passes through Saito, to Okuse, to Seiko, and farther back?

    4. Has any documented proof of this historical Iga Ryu Ninjutsu lineage been vetted through a third party? If so, what third party and what were their credntials? If not, why not?

    I may have other questions regarding you personal experiences with the training after reviewing your website, but I'm sure these question are plenty for now. Thank you, and I look forward to your reply.
  3. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/21/2010 5:06pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    DerAuslander --

    Jiraiyac earlier was wondering if the pictures posted by Niteowl could be removed. He says they are his pictures and used without permission. I suggested he contact a mod on this issue.

    Could you look into this issue for him, please? Thank you.
  4. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/22/2010 4:05am


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is perfectly fine with me if he wants the pictures removed. I can't edit the post at this point, but if a mod wants to take them off please feel free to do so.

    Also, while I do appreciate your clearing up of the relation between sports chanbara and ninjutsu at the dojo, it clears up nothing as far as if you have an actual ninjutsu lineage dating beyond 1-2 people in the last century. As for your objection:

    4. Even with photographic evidence, you still refuse to consider there was a genuine connection between Okuse, Saito, and Saito's students? Seems to me that you'll believe what you want to believe, regardless of how much evidence is provided.
    Please re-read the thread and stop attacking strawmen. At no point were claims made saying that there was no connection between Osuke and Saito. I did however question if you had a martial art dating all the way back to Hattori Hanzo (a samurai btw) during the Sengoku period. Furthermore while Osuke was certainly a big ninja buff as conceded, on the other hand his legacy is made up of a lot of showmanship (ninjato, books written during Japan's ninja boom, and wushu like 'Ninja' demonstrations ) and not much in the way of verified pre-Meiji martial arts. Outside of your site there is little in the way of writing in English or Japanese saying anything about him being a soke of a ryu-ha, and in fact if I were to take your advice on consulting the iga-ryu ninja museum, the museum site itself in its FAQ section says that an entirely different group is the only surviving ninja school, and that other people (such as Osuke) are just researchers and enthusiasts.

    If indeed however Osuke not just shared a passion for ninja but gave a menkyo kaiden to Saito in an actual iga ninja budo, then verifying it mainly falls down to the system's koryu status. There are two major organizations, the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai and the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai, which record ryu-ha that can prove a system existing before the 1860's. This requires submitting documents and scrolls to the scrutiny of a panel of historical experts in order to test their historicity. If Saito's system is not officially recognized as a kyoru then he was either unwilling or unable to prove his lineage beyond himself and perhaps Osuke. Virtually every martial art claiming a heritage starting Edo or eariler (including the Bujinkan) has applied to either one or both of these groups, and if you have a copy of the menkyo kaiden or the system's name in Japanese I can easily look it up for you.
    Last edited by nightowl; 5/22/2010 4:08am at .
  5. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/22/2010 8:31am


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Did a search again for 奥瀬平七郎 (Okuse Heishichiro). I still couldn't find any information in Japanese about him being a soke, only as a famous researcher on ninja and his former political positions. Only 2 websites (both related to the shinbunkan and in English) claim him as a iga-ryu soke.As mentioned before his own museum accepts only one ryu-ha as the last remaining ninja school, and it has nothing to do with the shinbunkan. In other words if I have the shinbunkan's claimed history right:


    =========Hattori Hanzo (Founder)

    =========---------????????????-------

    =========Fujita Seiko (famously said ninjutsu would die with him, friend of Osuke)

    =========Okuse Heishichiro (former mayor of iga, ninja researcher and museum founder. Said museum does not recognize Saito as the last remaining ninja)

    =========Saito and the Shinbunkan

    There's a lot of holes in there...certainly not much to go on besides Saito's word since Osuke is no longer among the living. Unless something new pops up, going by the evidence (and lack thereof) the Shinbunkan still seems to me like a short lived org in Australia which practiced sports chanbara and unverifiable ninjutsu (with trips to iga while dressing up as ninja...that has to count at least as LARPing light). Documents and koryu verification MIA...much like every other ninja org that has popped up.

    On the plus side I am curious enough now to read Osuke's books.
    Last edited by nightowl; 5/22/2010 8:38am at .
  6. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/23/2010 8:55am


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Niteowl is in a much better position to research this. I had to content myself with reviewing my own library (all English language books) for references to Okuse.

    Somewhat to my surprise, I did find mention of Okuse. I was actually looking for all my references to Fujita Seiko, and I started with a book I don't generally pick-up much anymore, Ninja: The Invisible Assassins, by Andrew Adams. Published in 1970, this was one of the first English books to discuss ninjutsu in any depth, and it helped kick off the US ninja boom. However, it is very much a work of pop non-fiction and it does not contain citations, footnotes, or a bibliography.

    Interestingly enough, Adams thanks two individuals as instrumental in his Acknowledgements: Yoshiaki (changed later, of course, to Masaaki) Hatsumi and Heishichiro Okuse!

    In describing these two men, Adams does reference Hatsumi's claim to being the 34th successor to Togakure Ryu. (This, at least, demonstrates a consistency in Hatsumi's claim over several decades and can be treated as a "control" if you will.) Okuse, however is described in a far more nebulous fashion:

    The other modern ninja whose assistance has been invaluable in the preparation of this book is Heishichiro Okuse, present mayor of Iga-Ueno -- former heartland of Ninjitsu [sic] -- in Mie Prefecture. Regarded as the foremost scholar and historian on the subject, Okuse is also a competent practitioner and occasionally demonstrates ninja techniques at the Ninja Museum in Iga-Ueno. Much of the information in the sections on strategy and tactics is based on material from his books... Okuse has been generous enough to permit use of material from his books...
    Adams does reference Okuse several times through the course of the book, and continues to maintain the blurry line about whether Okuse is a researcher or a practitioner. However, Adams never says Okuse laid a claim to any particular lineage or school. So he could just as easily have been (and I suspect probably was) a knowledgable re-enactor, much like we see skilled Civil War re-enactors or Viking Age re-enactors with detailed knowledge of their subjects.

    I still haven't had a chance to read the two websites (planting my produce garden was a much higher priority yesterday), but I trust Niteowl's research. A hidden, living lineage back to Hattori Hanzo would be astounding -- probably too good to be true.

    I guess we'll have to wait for jiraiyac to come back and explain his position some more...
  7. Darkchaoslord is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2011 12:53am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Karate

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Saito Crando Grand Master Kazuo is real

    It's valid, like the guy above said. Grand Master Kazuo Crando Saito teaches still at Lane Cove and Sutherland in Sydney NSW Australia. Shinbukan isn't widely known in the Western World, more in Japan following the style of Goju Ryu. Japan isn't big on giving massive webs about certain people.
    Following websites show proof:
    http://jiraiya.com.au/?page_id=644

    http://www.gojukarate.biz/Resume%20o...l%20duties.htm
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