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  1. SpamN'Cheese is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/28/2010 12:19am


     Style: Karate, Boxing, BJJ noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Shinbukan- WTF is up with it?!

    I was up tonight looking around for random shyte when I came upon the Shinbukan. The man, Kazuo "Crando" Saito, claims to teach Iga ryu ninjutsu and claims that Heishichiro Okuse and Fujita Seiko were the last 2 previous grandmasters. Anxious to find out more, I tried searching for articles on the site and didn't really find any threads discussing it, so I decided to open one up. Here is the main link:http://www.igaryu.com/biography.html

    And here is a blog site from his "former student":http://www.jiraiya.com.au/martialarts.htm

    If anyone can look more into this, that'd be great, and they have my thanks.
  2. no_bs is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/09/2010 3:14am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Igaryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    It's legit

    Dear OokamiSamurai7,

    I trained with Soke Saito for approx. 7 years.

    I also know of many ex-students that have trained with him for 15 years plus, some starting their own dojo's in Sydney and Queensland (from memory).

    When I first started I didn't directly train with Shane (Jiraiya), but I knew of him (& his brother). Sensei gave senior students nick-names like Shane's after they'd qualified for their black belt. Each year Soke took students back to Japan.

    I do know that he still has active dojo's in Lane Cove in Sydney and Sutherland.

    With regard to Iga Ryu, as the website states, there are no written manuals or glossy books you can buy at your local martial arts store....sorry.

    Good luck, and I hope that helps.
  3. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/09/2010 7:34am


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Looks fishy to me. (only sites that I could find mentioning the group here and here )

    While according to the blog the Shinbunkan might not even be around anymore, red flags include a somewhat sketchy history with claims back to hattori hanzo, Saito claiming sokeship of 2 styles (the other being 'saito' goyu ryu), an 8th dan in what saito calls tameshigiri iaido (tameshigiri is test cutting), no dojos in Japan (or japanese students), no affiliation with any Japanese historical budo organizations, and heavy training in sports chambara (which if that is your thing is fine, but it is definitely not traditional budo). To top off the cake of ninjerness there is claims of 'yakuza kumite', secret goyu ryu training, and other such goodies, but really it is like kicking when it is down at that point.

    The writings from his former top student (who goes by a ninja name and claims multiple shodans in sports chambara) don't help either. All in all the Shinbukan seems like a rather small org in Australia that does/did some larping and chambara stuff, but has little to do with historical Japanese martial arts. Fujita Seiko (whether he was legit or not) said that ninjutsu would die with him, and Heishichiro Okuse was a former mayor and the writer of several books during japan's ninja boom. Granted he did found the tourist trap known as the iga ninja museum, but it is not exactly the ninja version of the Smithsonian. Here is 'Jiraya's' account of what it was like to meet him and see the 'historical sites':

    Sensei Saito, Damien, another Australian, and I spent the day with the ailing Soke Okuse, first meeting him at his very private residence in Ueno City. Even though he would pass away only a few years later, the man commanded a significant prescence. More significantly, when he wanted something done, it was done immediately. Damien and I were asked to dress in our ninja gis (uniforms) but we didn't have them. In short order, two were provided for us by Okuse's retinue. When we needed transport, a fleet of black cars arrived with the clap of hands. We were allowed to freely wander the streets outside dressed in full uniform, as well as roam the Iga-Ueno Ninja Musuem and Ninja house (with cool ninja traps and secret passages and most excellent female guides in bright pink and purple outfits). Unfortunately, a 17th century revolving door designed for a 17th century Japanese ninja was a poor fit for a 6ft+ white boy from Oz, and so the sword handle on my back ended up sticking through a paper wall.
    Gold.

    So yes, whether Heishichiro Okuse taught ninjutsu or not he didn't exactly go for subtlety and accuracy over hollywood and manga ninja type stuff (the museum includes a ninjato). Not a solid base for claiming sokeship in ninjutsu. All in all the Shinbukan is just another ninja larp fest.

    Pics


    Last edited by nightowl; 4/09/2010 7:54am at .
  4. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/09/2010 4:32pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by no_bs View Post
    Dear OokamiSamurai7,

    I trained with Soke Saito for approx. 7 years.

    I also know of many ex-students that have trained with him for 15 years plus, some starting their own dojo's in Sydney and Queensland (from memory).

    When I first started I didn't directly train with Shane (Jiraiya), but I knew of him (& his brother). Sensei gave senior students nick-names like Shane's after they'd qualified for their black belt. Each year Soke took students back to Japan.

    I do know that he still has active dojo's in Lane Cove in Sydney and Sutherland.

    With regard to Iga Ryu, as the website states, there are no written manuals or glossy books you can buy at your local martial arts store....sorry.

    Good luck, and I hope that helps.
    YouTube- Come on, don't bullshit me

    What can you provide in the way of documentation of these claims?

    :ninjadanc
  5. vaquero de las nalgas is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/11/2010 3:33am


     Style: Hsing I, Bagua, Chi kung

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If the book about him is to be taken factually, Seiko Fujita made the decision not to teach or continue ninjutsu practices.

    Even if ninjutsu went underground, why would anyone teach it to foreigners or the simple man off the street? If "ninjutsu" was that badass, methinks it would be taught to people with deep pockets and credentials - say, governmental types.

    Besides which, lethal techniques would only get people into legal troubles.
  6. no_bs is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/10/2010 11:57pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Igaryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    To placate the curious

    I simply replied to this post originally because I did a quick search on my old dojo, and this thread popped up, then I thought I'd add a factual response from someone who's actually trained with Soke Saito.

    It's obviously very easy to sit in your room and have a go, so again to placate the curious I'll provide a bit more background.

    re: Cummings brothers
    My training started as theirs finished, as I stated before. I didn't train directly with them at all, but knew of them.
    They were a "different" lot, very into gothic/fantasy type stuff from memory. By his profession as a fantasy/horror novelist, I guess you can excuse him for re-telling his experiences with a touch of artistic licence.

    re: Sports Chanbara.
    I participated at the request of Soke Saito, and every year we hosted scores of Japanese Chanbara visitors. Chanbara was not my thing and never really caught on in Australia. After a few years it was canned in Australia (the website is way out of date).

    re: "Styygens" and documentation, I have signed scrolls from Okuse of my gradings.

    re: "vaquero de las nalgas"

    Even if ninjutsu went underground, why would anyone teach it to foreigners or the simple man off the street? If "ninjutsu" was that badass, methinks it would be taught to people with deep pockets and credentials - say, governmental types.

    Besides which, lethal techniques would only get people into legal troubles.
    I suggest getting yourself into a dojo (any martial art will do). You'll soon realise that they all teach some sort of technique that can be viewed as lethal, and they're not all frequented by CIA "governmental types". ;)
  7. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/11/2010 4:05pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by no_bs View Post
    I simply replied to this post originally because I did a quick search on my old dojo, and this thread popped up, then I thought I'd add a factual response from someone who's actually trained with Soke Saito.

    It's obviously very easy to sit in your room and have a go, so again to placate the curious I'll provide a bit more background.


    re: "Styygens" and documentation, I have signed scrolls from Okuse of my gradings.
    As you say... It's "easy to sit in your room and have a go."

    Please provide quality pictures so we can all see your grading scrolls and what they actually say. If you are concerned about providing these in a publicly viewed forum, I'm sure we can find a moderator or two to assist in a review through private messages. There are less public options available.

    If I'm reading this correctly, your teacher was Saito, who learned from Okuse? And your claim is that you have grading/scrolls signed by Okuse? So, what proof can you provide that this Iga Ryu lineage goes back any further than Okuse?

    And believe me, I am sincere when I say that I would love to see anyone provide irrefutable proof of a legitimate ninjutsu lineage.

    Thank you for your reply, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
  8. jiraiyac is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2010 11:08pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Iga-ryu Ninjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    1. The first image in nightowl's post was taken in Adelaide at a Sports Chanbara class. The sensei in that image is not Kazuo Saito. Misinformation such as this only further muddies the waters. Captions on my website (http://jiraiya.com.au/?page_id=644) accurately describe each image. Also, no permission was sought to post these photos on this forum. Please remove them immediately.

    2. Saito sensei's Ninjutsu and Sports Chanbara classes were strictly separate. Ultimately, I continued on further with my Chanbara training than I did with Ninjutsu. There was no "LARPing" as has been insinuated.

    3. Yes, I have multiple shodans in Sports Chanbara - with even a little research, you would understand that gradings take place for each weapon (and there are several). I attained these levels through training across several dojos over a six year period.

    4. Even with photographic evidence, you still refuse to consider there was a genuine connection between Okuse, Saito, and Saito's students? Seems to me that you'll believe what you want to believe, regardless of how much evidence is provided.

    The most relevant point to this whole discussion is: why? Why do you care if Saito sensei's training is historically accurate? What does publicly running down another sensei's school bring you as a martial artist? How does any of this make you a better martial artist or person?

    My advice is to pull your heads in and concentrate on the teachings of your sensei and improving your technique. What someone else does should be of no consequence to you, and if it is, ask yourself: what is lacking about my character that I need to attack another's character when there is no gain to be made?

    Beyond this, the only thing I have to say about my training with Saito sensei is the personal statement on my website (http://jiraiya.com.au/?page_id=644).

    My past is the past. It is well documented and on display for the curious. I do not intend to engage in further debate on this matter. Beyond that, my past is of no relevance to you, and I don't appreciate misinformation being spread about it.

    Shane Jiraiya Cummings
  9. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/20/2010 4:14pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jiraiyac View Post
    1. The first image in nightowl's post was taken in Adelaide at a Sports Chanbara class. The sensei in that image is not Kazuo Saito. Misinformation such as this only further muddies the waters. Captions on my website (http://jiraiya.com.au/?page_id=644) accurately describe each image. Also, no permission was sought to post these photos on this forum. Please remove them immediately.
    Thank you for taking the time to post a response. Just so you know, niteowl may not have the ability to modify his post. You may contact a moderator (any of the posters with a red user name) and see if they can assist you in having your images removed.

    Quote Originally Posted by jiraiyac View Post
    2. Saito sensei's Ninjutsu and Sports Chanbara classes were strictly separate. Ultimately, I continued on further with my Chanbara training than I did with Ninjutsu. There was no "LARPing" as has been insinuated.

    3. Yes, I have multiple shodans in Sports Chanbara - with even a little research, you would understand that gradings take place for each weapon (and there are several). I attained these levels through training across several dojos over a six year period.
    Thank you for clearing up this point. I don't have any questions about sports chanbara.

    Quote Originally Posted by jiraiyac View Post
    4. Even with photographic evidence, you still refuse to consider there was a genuine connection between Okuse, Saito, and Saito's students? Seems to me that you'll believe what you want to believe, regardless of how much evidence is provided.
    I don't see anyone disputing a linkage between Okuse, Saito, and Saito's students. My question about specific lineage was: "If I'm reading this correctly, your teacher was saito, who learned from Okuse? And your claim is that you have grading/scrolls signed by Okuse?"

    I was -- and to some extent, still am -- confuse about the line of instruction no_bs was describing and sought clarification.

    I do have a larger question about the lineage claims further back than Okuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by jiraiyac View Post
    The most relevant point to this whole discussion is: why? Why do you care if Saito sensei's training is historically accurate?
    Because, claiming to teach Iga Ryu ninjutsu is asserting a claim on a historical lineage. As a lover of history, historical accuracy matters to me. As a lover of martial arts, provenance of a system matters to me. Truth matters to me. Are you implying it doesn't matter to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by jiraiyac View Post
    What does publicly running down another sensei's school bring you as a martial artist? How does any of this make you a better martial artist or person?
    I didn't bring this matter up, nor was I even involved until no_bs appeared and claimed direct experience of the school in question. I asked some questions. I am merely probing the extraordinary claims made by others.

    Examining an extraordinary claim merely makes me a curious person. Studying history makes me a studious and informed person. Perhaps this does not make me a "better" person, but asking questions does not make me a bad person either.

    Quote Originally Posted by jiraiyac View Post
    My advice is to pull your heads in and concentrate on the teachings of your sensei and improving your technique.
    I will take this under advisement.

    Quote Originally Posted by jiraiyac View Post
    What someone else does should be of no consequence to you, and if it is, ask yourself: what is lacking about my character that I need to attack another's character when there is no gain to be made?
    a.) You obviously don't understand this web site.

    b.) Ultimately, what you do or what you believe probably isn't of serious consequence to me. But that doesn't mean I can't ask a few legitimate questions to find out more. Perhaps what you're doing IS of serious consequence. How else can I know?

    You seem to believe asking questions is akin to character assassination. It isn't.

    The only "gain" I'm after is intellectual honesty: claims are made, claims are examined, truth comes out. Is truth not a good in itself?

    Quote Originally Posted by jiraiyac View Post
    Beyond this, the only thing I have to say about my training with Saito sensei is the personal statement on my website (http://jiraiya.com.au/?page_id=644).

    My past is the past. It is well documented and on display for the curious. I do not intend to engage in further debate on this matter. Beyond that, my past is of no relevance to you, and I don't appreciate misinformation being spread about it.

    Shane Jiraiya Cummings
    Again, thank you for your response.
  10. jiraiyac is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/20/2010 10:23pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Iga-ryu Ninjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes, like No_BS, all of my grading certificates are co-signed by Heishichiro Okuse (as 15th Soke of Iga-ryu Ninjutsu) and Kazuo Saito (as 16th Soke). There is, of course, the photographic evidence I provide on my website. In fact, I was present with Saito sensei when he received calls from (or called) Okuse sensei many times.

    Beyond that, I make no claims beyond what Saito sensei himself has told me or written on his website about the Iga-ryu ninjutsu lineage.

    Obviously, I've misunderstood the nature of this site, which seems to be the antithesis of true martial arts philosophy. You're after intellectual honesty, Styygens? If you're deadly serious about your dedication to learning the history of ninjutsu, you wouldn't be trawling through troll boards. Ask the people at the Iga ninja museum. Enquire at Iga city with Okuse's relatives and acquaintances. If you want the link between Okuse and Seiko Fuijta, you'll find it there.

    Beyond my personal experience, I can't provide the answers you're supposedly looking for.
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