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  1. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Mar 2007
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    Vancouver, BC
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    1,964

    Posted On:
    1/24/2010 12:04am


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by realjanuary View Post
    Posts like this made me honestly confused about which thread I was reading: a talk about a product with 'combative' in the name or the current aikido thread.
    It was a tangent. This is YMAS; I don’t feel honour-bound to keep every post 100% on topic, and the aikido guy the “kicks are like low punches” reminded me off fits rather well in a comedy forum.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  2. Punisher is offline
    Punisher's Avatar

    Seeker of Truth

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    2,943

    Posted On:
    1/24/2010 12:27am

    supporting member
     Style: Five Animal Fighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm currently also going through the Gracie Combatives program and at the end I plan/planned to write a review from my perspective, i.e. a lifelong martial artist with limited grappling experience looking to integrate functional self-defense focused grappling into a larger overall curriculum.

    The reason why I say "planned" is I figured by the time I actually went through the program everyone else and their brother will have already reviewed Gracie Combatives and put there two cents in.

    I bought the DVD's after training at three different BJJ schools in the area. At each school I was pretty up front about what I wanted, that I wanted to learn grappling for self-defense. At all three schools I was disappointed to spend only about 20% of the time on things I felt I would ever use outside of class or BJJ competition. I even started taking private lessons from a Rickson Gracie Black Belt, asking him to teach me just what he would use on the street and how he would use it. Our lessons were horribly unstructured and consisted primarily of a his purple belt assistant trying to push me away while I tried to do either body lock or single leg take down.

    When I bought GC, I was skeptical and wasn't expecting much, but so far I've been very pleasantly surprised. I've watched all the DVD's and I'm currently drilling them in the manner the Gracies specify with small training group to see how things go. So far, I feel most of the criticisms I have heard about Gracie Combatives are a little unfair.

    First of all the Gracies are pretty clear about what the course and what the course is not. "Gracies Combatives" is 36 basic techniques picked to give the student a broad overview of GJJ, sufficient enough to defend them self against someone who doesn't have any grappling training, specifically in BJJ/GJJ. In fact, they clearly state that is what their current standard for awarding someone a blue belt, and I have no problem with that. Setting the standard for the first ranking in your art as the ability to use the techniques and strategies of that art to defeat a larger, physically superior opponent without such knowledge seems fair and logical.

    This standard also happens to make many of the criticisms I’ve read about Gracie Combatives irrelevant. Arguments of how a "GC Blue Belt" would do in competition, or even a street fight, against any other BJJ Blue Belt don't matter. GC never claims to teach you anything on how to defend against BJJ. The only relevant question is how well a GC Blue Belt would be able to defend themselves against an untrained attacker, compared to any other BJJ Blue Belt. So far from what I've seen, training and drilling techniques in GC can give you a significant advantage over someone without grappling knowledge, and there isn't much left out that any BJJ Blue Belt would need to know or use against an opponent not knowledgeable about ground fighting. The difference is that someone can get through the focused GC curriculum in 6 months, while a traditional Blue Belt takes much longer, presumably because of the time spent on things like gi chokes and guard passes.

    The GC doesn't include defenses against knives/kicks/takedowns etc. is a new one for me, but once I started to think about it, I wasn't really bothered by it. As far as kicks go, GC does cover it, albeit not directly. The GC mantra is get the clinch, get the take down, secure superior position, finish the fight. If you asked Ryron and Rener about kicks, they would likely keep your hands up and go for the clinch, pointing out that closing the distance takes away the opponents ability to kick effectively.

    GC doesn't contain any real takedown defense either, but gives you a myriad of options to defend yourself if you are taken down. And while it is true that GC doesn't address knives at all, it think that is an unfair criticism something a beginning level self-defense course. We teach knife defense at my school, but that is advance material that we don't get into until 2-3 years of training. I never expected it to be included in GC and don't care if it is not. That being said, assuming that the person being attacked realized they were being attacked by a knife there is a lot in GC that could be used to handle the situation. The is also a lot of stuff that can get you killed if you don't realize the guy has a knife or he pulls one in the middle of the fight, but that is no different than any other self defense system I've ever encountered.

    Now that I've firmly established myself as a GC nuthugger, I do have some problems with it. Although it is by far the best grappling for self-defense curriculum I've ever seen, I don't think taking the fight to the ground is always the best option. I teach my students that you only fight until safe escape is possible and intentionally clinching and going to the ground makes a speedy escape more difficult, even if you are on top. I also tend to think that most arm locks are too damaging to use in most self defense situations. Breaking bones and tearing tendons when not absolutely necessary can leave you subject to serious criminal and civil consequences. Chokes can end a fight without serious injury, but unfortunately look to your average citizen that you are trying to kill someone.

    Bottom line, if you can handle the obvious Gracie bias, GC is an excellent program that provides exactly what I've tried unsuccessfully to get at several BJJ schools.
  3. ironcastknight is offline

    Registered Member

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    426

    Posted On:
    1/24/2010 12:35am


     Style: Kendo, Krotty

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A review of a controversial self defense oriented GJJ program by a tiger-wrasslin', certified badass Judoka? Hell yeah sign me up! Subscribed like the Fist of the North Star.

    Rock on Mister Tripp, you crazy diamond.
  4. Thaiboxerken is offline
    Thaiboxerken's Avatar

    Genius

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    Oct 2004
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    Portland, Oregon
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    Posted On:
    1/24/2010 5:05am

    supporting member
     Style: Kru-MuayThai,GJJ-Blue

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JudOWNED View Post
    When are we going to see Gracie Combatives trained guys submitting people in MMA? Yeah, that's what I thought.
    Gracie Jujitsu practitioners are usually far beyond the Combatives training. The Combative training is not meant to create a superior MMA fighter.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." – Voltaire.
  5. slideyfoot is offline
    slideyfoot's Avatar

    Artemis BJJ Co-Founder/Instructor

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    Dec 2011
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    Bristol, UK
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    Posted On:
    1/24/2010 6:21am

    Business Class Supporting Membersupporting member
     Artemis BJJ | Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in Bristol Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher View Post
    So far, I feel most of the criticisms I have heard about Gracie Combatives are a little unfair.
    I'm not implying that you haven't read the earlier thread, but I think it's worth linking to the huge MABS discussion around Gracie Combatives, in case anyone is unclear just what those criticisms are.

    AFAIK, the two big ones are online ranking and the alleged distinction between 'self defence' GJJ and 'sport' BJJ, which appears to denigrate the central importance of resistance training.
  6. Diesel_tke is offline
    Diesel_tke's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2010 8:42am

    supporting member
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I vote that we leave this thread for Mtrip's review and let other people do their own review in their own thread. That way we can keep this one on topic. It is not every day that we get a review from someone as experienced in grappling as MTrip and get to discuss with him as well. So I think we should take advantage of that rather than shitting up the thread with reviews from everyone with a copy of GU.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  7. Nwp is offline
    Nwp's Avatar

    Welterweight

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    Feb 2006
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    Conroe, Tx
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    Posted On:
    1/24/2010 8:51am

    supporting member
     Style: Wrestling, Bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by diesel_tke View Post
    I vote that we leave this thread for Mtrip's review and let other people do their own review in their own thread. That way we can keep this one on topic. It is not every day that we get a review from someone as experienced in grappling as MTrip and get to discuss with him as well. So I think we should take advantage of that rather than shitting up the thread with reviews from everyone with a copy of GU.
    Second.
  8. MGM is offline

    Registered Member

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    Pilot Point, AK
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    Posted On:
    1/24/2010 12:09pm


     Style: Bartitsu&German Longsword

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Looking forward to seeing more of Mr Tripp's review and am especially interested to see if the GC is a cost effective purchase.
  9. Red Elvis is offline
    Red Elvis's Avatar

    Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2010 12:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by diesel_tke View Post
    I vote that we leave this thread for Mtrip's review and let other people do their own review in their own thread. That way we can keep this one on topic.
    I agree with your point but he should have taken it to the forum I initially directed him too. This is primarily a forum for stuff generally related to martial arts but is heavy with trolling and "comedy".

    Controlling threads in this forum is like herding cats...

    My personal suggestion *now* would be for him to summarize his review in the proper forum when this one runs its course so it will be more accessible and in a place people will likely look for it.

    In two months this thread will be 10 pages back and dropping fast.
    .
    :icon_twis
    .

    To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
    Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
    Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
  10. Red Elvis is offline
    Red Elvis's Avatar

    Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2010 12:17pm

    supporting member
     Style: Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher View Post
    Bottom line, if you can handle the obvious Gracie bias, GC is an excellent program that provides exactly what I've tried unsuccessfully to get at several BJJ schools.
    You bring up an interesting perspective and one that I've gone back and forth with over the last 16 years. I'll save my opinions though for another day in an attempt to keep this thread somewhat on topic.

    :5bullwhip :XXcat:
    .
    :icon_twis
    .

    To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
    Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
    Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
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