1/04/2010 11:11pm, #11
After a day or two in the rumormill, I'm even more pissed off about this change. Keep in mind these are rumors and hearsay, but I've heard that the reasons for removing CPAMMA had much less to do with the quality of instruction than the financial situation of the gym.
For instance, one solid-appearing rumor is that Ryan has been paying his instructors out-of-pocket for the past 3 months (since October), rather than the gym paying them. Ryan hasn't commented on it, but it's been all but confirmed by some of his assistants. There are some variants here, with the gym refusing to pay them suddenly, or deciding to try and limit the size of the CPAMMA program without Ryan's approval, instructors and all. Overall though, it's mostly consistent: the gym stopping direct payment to assistant instructors sometime around October.
This leads me to a second rumor, which I'm not as sure about since Ryan is refusing to comment on it, that Ryan himself hasn't been paid in a similar stretch. I'm finding it hard to believe he would put up with this for any stretch of time, but it might fit with him paying instructors out-of-pocket, depending on what combination of circumstances you believe in. However, all of them seem to hinge on the 3rd rumor...
Lionheart gym is rumored to be losing money alarmingly fast. This one seems more of an open secret. Although State College is remarkably recession-resistant, local businesses are still having trouble, money-wise. Combine the bad economy with new management buying the gym in summer 2009, then gutting half the free weights, buying loads of unnecessary cardio machines and dropping the basic membership price to $10/month...it's not difficult to believe Lionheart is on rocky ground.
Basically, these add up to two similar scenarios that I see as plausible.
1. Lionheart wanted to reduce the number of instructors of the marital arts program. Ryan objected to firing his instructors, so Lionheart fired him and hired 2 instructors that will run the martial arts program on their own. 2 people to pay is substantially less than the 10 or so that encompasses the totality of CPAMMA instructors.
2. Without necessarily wanting to eliminate the program, Lionheart stopped paying assistant instructors as well as Ryan himself, out of desperation due to their financial straights. They got 2 or 3 free months of martial arts membership money this way, then fired Ryan when he put his foot down. Now they've hired 2 instructors willing to run a program at a much cheaper price.
I'm not sure which scenario I believe more. The first one seems less stupid on Lionheart's side, but it also seems odd to stop payment and then negotiate letting the assistant instructors go.
I'm confused about this whole thing, but even less happy with Lionheart in general. Their own financial stupidity shouldn't ruin others' livelihoods.
1/05/2010 12:09am, #12
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
- Wing Chun Kuen
Edit: IANAL, I'm sure a few consumer protection laws were broken, if nothing else, emotional distress usually works esp. if there's more than four individuals involved.
No professional (doctor/engineer/hairdresser/etc) should have to bear the ignominy of this bullshit.
Last edited by Whathappened; 1/05/2010 12:16am at .
1/05/2010 2:10am, #13
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
1/05/2010 3:34am, #14
1/07/2010 3:34pm, #15
- Join Date
- Jan 2010
A CPAMMA member posted that the “Titan Fitness instructors are a joke,” on the Titan webpage. In addition, many CPAMMA members have called Titan instructors inadequate, unskilled, and disgraceful, including this thread.
I am the boxing instructor at Titan Fitness. In addition to several years of experience competing in amateur boxing , my coaching resume includes 3 years as the coach of the Penn State Boxing Team. Under my coaching, Penn State Boxing has risen to become one of the best collegiate teams in the country. I have coached two All-Americans, a National Runner-up, five national qualifiers, and dozens of fighters in approximately 100 fights.
I fought for years in amateur boxing out of Altoona Boxing Club, under Coach John Robertson, whom has been coaching boxing for 40 years, and Coach Tom Wilt, whom had over 200 amateur fights, 6 open-class state championships, and a professional boxing record of 21-7. I apply the European “boxer-mover” style, learned from Walter Kravitsky, and the Philly “counter-puncher” style, learned from Steve Bumbaco, in addition to the "pressure-cooker" style I learned from Altoona Boxing.
For CPAMMA members to call me a “joke,” and “inadequate,” is offensive. I can’t speak for the MMA or grappling programs. I have no experience with them. As far as the sport of boxing goes, there is no one in State College that knows more about the sweet science than I do.
It is false advertising for CPAMMA to advertise that two it’s members were “Golden Gloves State Champions.” Shane Finn and Nora Roberts entered the sub-novice level of the Golden Gloves Tournament , where there IS NO STATE CHAMPIONSHIP. Shane and Nora each had one-single fight, in which they won the Allegheny Mountain Region Sub-novice Golden Gloves. I do not mean to belittle Shane and Nora. They each fought courageously and won. Winning a fight at any level is a great accomplishment. Especially considering that their coach, Ryan Gruhn, has never set foot in the ring. To advertise them as “Golden Gloves State Champions” is false advertising.
I have known Ryan Gruhn for many years, way back when he coached at Titan Fitness, years before the RealContact Fight Team existed. Paul and Bruce have known Ryan his entire life. I know for a fact that Gruhn has never had a real boxing coach, nor any education of the sweet science of any kind. CPAMMA “boxing” instruction is little more than hands-only Thai Boxing, with addition of some very strange Kali moves that are completely ineffective in the sport of amateur boxing.
My boxing class starts Monday night at Lionheart Fitness and MMA. I have no business dealings what-so-ever. I am a life-long friend of Paul Z., and I teach when and where he needs me to teach. You are all very welcome to come and learn the sweet science from me. I will be teaching the Eurpoean boxer-mover style, most notably used by the Cubans and Russians to dominate international boxing (now also used by the English, Irish, Thai, and several other teams whom have hired a former Cuban coach). I learned this style from its source, a former member of the Russian Olympic Team. Additionally, I teach the pressure-style, which was taught to me by the great Tommy Wilt. I teach my boxers the “chess match” of boxing, how to out-smart their opponents. We also spar, condition, strength train, and analyze videos.
Given my extensive boxing resume, as a fighter and a coach, I take great offense to CPAMMA members calling me a joke, and inadequate.
1/08/2010 12:38am, #16
this post) is with the Lionheart management for how they've treated Ryan and his assistants. However, though your boxing resume is extensive, I still believe Lionheart is making a move to lower quality instruction.
Firstly, you are correct in that as far as I know, Mr. Gruhn has no specific training or fights in boxing, nor does he claim any. He does have training and certification as a Level III instructor in Muay Thai, though no fights as far as I know. He holds a BJJ blue belt under the De La Riva system from Jeff Rockwell and is also a candidate to be named "Guard Dog" in the Dog Brothers stickfighting organization, and has participated in multiple Gatherings with that group.
My point in listing Ryan's varied qualifications is that while he may not be the area's number one boxing coach, in my opinion he is certainly one of the best qualified to administer and manage a comprehensive martial arts program. In teaching Muay Thai and stickfighting himself, Ryan is well within his own qualifications. In fact, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better source of stickfighting training and knowledge in the entire northeast, let alone all of Pennsylvania.
Ryan had also put together an impressive array of instructors in grappling fields. Although Jeff Rockwell is sadly no longer with the program, Dave Light, a blue belt in the De La Riva BJJs system and a Quantum Jujitsu black belt, handles instructor duties admirably with no higher belt available to teach. Former Penn State wrestler Rick Bolinsky teaches wrestling, and Mike Fusco, who claims a 7-2 record in MMA, was scheduled to begin teaching submission wrestling in January.
Once again, my point is that Mr. Gruhn's knowledge, skills and connections to martial artists in all ranges of combat ensure quality instruction from himself and his assistants throughout the totality of the CPAMMA program. CPAMMA students' comments and experiences with Titan students regarding grappling, combined with the knowledge that none of Titan's instructors carry the high-level certification of Arjan Chai or the Dog Brothers should be instructive in that a move to any other instructor would be a step down in quality, because Mr. Gruhn has put together the best comprehensive martial arts program in central Pennsylvania. This is evidenced both by the level of success his instructors have had, and the quality of students he produces.
Speaking specifically to boxing, I took boxing instruction from Mr. Gruhn and his students for a little over a year, up until this fall. I found his instruction informative, credible and practical, however this is from the perspective of an amateur who has never stepped into the ring. As to your allegations about Shane and Nora's Golden Gloves wins, I have no knowledge of those particulars. What I do know is that whether or not Ryan's training is the best preparation for a straight boxing match, he teaches his boxing classes with an eye towards more comprehensive combat, including training and techniques that do not rely on large gloves or Queensbury rules in order to be effective. I tend to view Ryan's additions regarding Thai boxing and filipino stick fighting as helpful, because they apply to less restrictive and more realistic settings. However, this again is a matter of opinion.
Even if the boxing instruction at CPAMMA is not the #1 best in the region, it is but one aspect of the program. Similarly, cost of instructors and the necessity to actually pay said instructors are just one, narrow view that Lionheart has chosen to take with regards to the CPAMMA program. It is my strongly held view that Lionheart has intentionally sacrificed quality for familiarity and frugality, all the while rudely and unethically screwing over a man innocent of any wrongdoing who depends on his martial arts teaching for a living. All of this under the guise of making an "improvement" in quality, based on the claim that Paul and Bruce were ever Ryan Gruhn's teachers, which is totally fraudulent.
Whatever your name is, I'm sure you really are a very good boxing instructor. I wish you, personally, all the best. However, Paul and Bruce have tied themselves (and you along with them) to a sinking ship, willing to fire a top-quality martial artist and program manager for having the audacity to demand the payment agreed upon. This will work out better for Ryan in the end, and Lionheart will receive their karmic reward.
EDIT: May I also add that Titan gym, which I had the fortune of visiting only 3 times, in 3 different months, has been uniformly filthy as far as mats, locker rooms and floor surfaces go, every time I was in the gym. This is an observation echoed by former Titan, now CPAMMA, members (and let's not forget that in judging the quality of instruction at Titan, most of Ryan's senior students were at Titan before moving to Lionheart with Titan, so it's more than just wild speculation). I look for a rapid increase of ringworm and staph infections at the new, "improved" Lionheart. Quality indeed.
Last edited by G-Off; 1/08/2010 1:23am at .
1/08/2010 10:18am, #17
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
When the CDT did a story on the Titan guys were on the papers website talking **** instantly so dont get so but hurt dave
If any one has any question about the instruction there just watch the "learn UFC with Bruce Clips" they posted on you tube they speak volumes
1/10/2010 12:28am, #18
- Join Date
- Sep 2004
- Soviet State Of Kalifornia
- Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu
I too would like to hear Ryan’s side of the story as there seems to me more to it than this given Ryan posted the following on 9/8/09 (some three months prior to this event):
While we reside in "LionHeart" right now, the "LionHeart" brand is coming to an end soon as the gym is to be renamed "The Downtown Club" by the end of the year to follow the theme of "The North Club." Central PA Mixed Martial Arts will reside in The Downtown Club and will not, nor will ever have any affiliation with "LionHeart Fighters" or Chad Dubin.
I brought my programs and over 100+ students to the gym when it was renamed Lion Heart but to be honest I/We were never really part of the "Lion Heart" team and were just doing our MA programs inside LH. The CPAMMA fight team is still very good friends with all of the LH fighters and support them to no end. However, we want nothing to do with LHF.
In any regard, getting let go always sucks and screwing over what appears to be the 100+ students Ryan brought with him is shameful. Give Ryan my best and I’m sure he’ll work through this and be better because of it!
To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
1/22/2010 12:33pm, #19
- Join Date
- Jan 2010
- MMA, BJJ
Further, the idea that Ryan Gruhn has never competed in a professional boxing match (if this is even true) is IRRELEVANT. Many extremely successful trainers teach styles that they themselves have not competed in. Greg Jackson, the most accomplished MMA trainer in the country, was never a competitive fighter outside of folk-style wrestling. Second, Ryan Gruhn is a certified INSTRUCTOR in several disciplines, including Filipino Martial Arts / Kali / Escrima / Arnis / Silat, Jun Fan / Jeet Kune Do, Dog Brothers Martial Arts and Muay Thai. He has competed in multiple competitions, including Brazilian Jiu Jitsu tournaments.
NOTE: These qualifications are limited to the ones that I know about, I am sure there are many more I am not aware of.
It is my opinion, after training with Ryan Gruhn, that despite his experience and certifications, his greatest attribute is his TEACHING. His instruction style is crystal clear, detailed, patient, and charismatic. He displays a genuine concern for each of his students, whether they have been training with him for a day (in one of his free seminars provided for the benefit of any member of the surrounding community), a week, or a year. He also fosters the development of a "team" atmosphere among his students by arranging social events outside of the gym, which increases the value of our training time. The quality of his instruction is evident when you see the outpouring of support for, and commitment to CPAMMA from their students since LionHeart / Downtown Club committed the unethical and insulting acts of recent time.
Good luck teaching your "sweet science" at LionHeart until they go out of business in a few weeks or months. Stay classy "Dr. Mayhem."
1/23/2010 1:55pm, #20
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
"Dr.Mayhem" lets not make collegiate cub boxing into something it is not. It is for all intents and purposes novice to sub novice. It is not like it is high level or a training ground for pro boxers. Ryan has students at least one has been boxing since the eraly 90's and medaled in Keystone state games in high school around '93, same student also has taken professionals to school sparring, and has completely owned a former NCAA D1 all american wrestler and collegiate national champion boxer and current pro mma fighter (boxing only) so there is plenty to be said for the cpmma boxing program,and you are not the oldest hand at boxing around town. So settle down