225326 Bullies, 4270 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 11 to 20 of 41
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12 345 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. DdlR is offline
    DdlR's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,772

    Posted On:
    1/03/2010 9:18pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma View Post
    I didn't intend to imply it was recreated because of the movie. What I was pointing out was it wasn't like Greco-Roman Wrestling or Pankration which were established historical styles that were refounded. Bartitsu seems to be some guys experiment that only lasted a few years and died.
    I agree that SteamPunk can be awesome, but not that Greco-Roman wrestling was a re-founding of an established historical style.

    At the time Pierre de Coubertin and his colleagues were re-establishing the Olympic Games, there was a broad cultural movement towards "re-enacting" classical culture; you can see it in 19th century theater, art, architecture, etc. Part of that effort involved finding (then) contemporary equivalents to classical sports. The original Olympic Committee chose a traditional form of rural French folk-wrestling called la lutte a mains platte ("wrestling with flat hands") because they felt that it resembled the ancient Greek wrestling represented in classical art. Later, it became "re-branded" as Greco-Roman wrestling.

    It's probably pointless to draw this sort of comparison, but the resources for re-creating Bartitsu are actually much more detailed than those used in recreating Pankration.

    Finally, though, yes, as I mentioned, Bartitsu was a martial arts experiment that went unfinished back in the very early 1900s. The modern "revival" aims to continue the experiment, no more and no less.
  2. henshinx is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Denver Co.
    Posts
    284

    Posted On:
    1/03/2010 10:15pm


     Style: Enshin Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    why do they punch with a vertical fist, is that the way boxers used to punch back then?
  3. DdlR is offline
    DdlR's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,772

    Posted On:
    1/03/2010 10:20pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Depends on the individual/source, but generally yes, especially face punches.
  4. jwinch2 is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    401

    Posted On:
    1/04/2010 12:03pm


     Style: Pekiti Tirsia Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Its probably also worth noticing that, to my knowledge, the use of Bartitsu was only mentioned in one Sherlock Holmes story in passing and that is the one where Holmes was brought back from the dead. It has been a while since I read the complete works volumes 1 and 2, but I believe I am accurate in my statements. Conan-Doyle has far more references to boxing throughout the series of stories and novels. In the write up at the beginning of the complete works of Sherlock Holmes vol. 2, it is discussed that Conan-Doyle had no intension of writing any further Sherlock Holmes stories after Holmes fell off a cliff after his chase after professor Moriarty. In deciding to bring him back, he needed a plausible explanation of how Holmes could have survived the encounter and thus, brought in Bartitsu.

    That being said, I have no issue whatsoever with people trying to re-create Bartitsu as a style and continue experimenting with the techniques if that is their fancy. However, to label it as the "lost martial art of Sherlock Holmes" is not accurate. The one time that Conan-Doyle mentions Bartitsu, it goes something like "... I have some small knowledge of Bartitsu..." and that is the end of it. However, many times throughout the works, he mentions boxing though to be fair, Holmes is not involved in any sort of fighting in 99% of the complete works of Conan-Doyle.

    If the actual goal of bringing this back is to celebrate history in a manner that is accurate, that should likely be the focus rather than Holmes' relationship to the style.

    I hope that this does not come across as overly critical because I am a very big fan of what people are doing in terms of bringing this art back. I strongly feel that as a whole, the martial arts community is guilty in overlooking and not giving proper credit to Western martial prowess, particularly in the feudal and renaissance eras. In addition, Bartitsu may be the one of the first, if not the first, known example of "Gendai Budo/Bujutsu" and is certainly worthy of celebration for its historical significance along those lines, regardless of any connection it may or may not have with Sherlock Holmes.

    Good luck with the project.
    Last edited by jwinch2; 1/04/2010 12:13pm at .
  5. DdlR is offline
    DdlR's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,772

    Posted On:
    1/04/2010 12:17pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What he actually says is:

    When I reached the end I stood at bay. He drew no weapon, but he rushed at me and threw his long arms around me. He knew that his own game was up, and was only anxious to revenge himself upon me. We tottered together upon the brink of the fall. I have some knowledge, however, of baritsu, or the Japanese system of wrestling, which has more than once been very useful to me. I slipped through his grip, and he with a horrible scream kicked madly for a few seconds and clawed the air with both his hands. But for all his efforts he could not get his balance, and over he went. With my face over the brink I saw him fall for a long way. Then he struck a rock, bounced off, and splashed into the water.
    Since Bartitsu actually includes both boxing and stick fighting as well as jujitsu, it can also be argued that Holmes used Bartitsu each of the times he is depicted defending himself in the canon. It really depends on how you want to read the stories, and how seriously you take "playing the great game" of imagining the Holmes was a real person.

    Also, I'd argue that even though 'baritsu' only appeared once in the canon, it was a rather significant reference; he used it to save his own life and defeat his arch-enemy in a single moment. If you ever visit the Swiss town of Meiringen, adjacent to the Reichenbach Falls, you'll see that a large part of their tourist industry is based on that same moment.

    The "lost martial art of Sherlock Holmes" theme is a handy pop-culture "hook", but it mostly refers to the fact that, if not for martial arts scholars and Holmes enthusiasts puzzling over this one cryptic reference, the historical art of Bartitsu might well have been completely forgotten during the 20th century, and the modern revival might well never have happened.
  6. jwinch2 is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    401

    Posted On:
    1/04/2010 12:55pm


     Style: Pekiti Tirsia Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    What he actually says is:



    Since Bartitsu actually includes both boxing and stick fighting as well as jujitsu, it can also be argued that Holmes used Bartitsu each of the times he is depicted defending himself in the canon. It really depends on how you want to read the stories, and how seriously you take "playing the great game" of imagining the Holmes was a real person.

    Also, I'd argue that even though 'baritsu' only appeared once in the canon, it was a rather significant reference; he used it to save his own life and defeat his arch-enemy in a single moment. If you ever visit the Swiss town of Meiringen, adjacent to the Reichenbach Falls, you'll see that a large part of their tourist industry is based on that same moment.

    The "lost martial art of Sherlock Holmes" theme is a handy pop-culture "hook", but it mostly refers to the fact that, if not for martial arts scholars and Holmes enthusiasts puzzling over this one cryptic reference, the historical art of Bartitsu might well have been completely forgotten during the 20th century, and the modern revival might well never have happened.
    I agree it was a significant reference but the fact remains that it is the only one. As for the boxing being a part of Bartitsu and thus him having used Bartitsu every time he boxed, that is pretty thin. Prior to the quote you illustrated, Conan-Doyle made no reference to Bartitsu but did reference boxing several times. What is likely is that, as Conan-Doyle was deciding how to reintroduce Holmes to the public and come up with a plausible manner in which he could still be alive, he found out about Bartitsu and decided to include it at that point. There is no way to know for sure but it seems a likely scenario.

    Also, like I said earlier I am very happy to see this revival taking place as I feel that it is a significant thing that should be celebrated. I just feel that the Holmes connection is a bit overdone though I certainly understand why it is being touted in the manner in which it is. I hope I did not come across overly critical in my earlier post. If I did, my apologies.

    Good luck with the project, I will be very interested to see how it goes in the future.
  7. DdlR is offline
    DdlR's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,772

    Posted On:
    1/04/2010 1:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jwinch2 View Post
    I agree it was a significant reference but the fact remains that it is the only one. As for the boxing being a part of Bartitsu and thus him having used Bartitsu every time he boxed, that is pretty thin. Prior to the quote you illustrated, Conan-Doyle made no reference to Bartitsu but did reference boxing several times. What is likely is that, as Conan-Doyle was deciding how to reintroduce Holmes to the public and come up with a plausible manner in which he could still be alive, he found out about Bartitsu and decided to include it at that point. There is no way to know for sure but it seems a likely scenario.
    Yes, of course! Like I said, it depends on whether we're "playing the game". In reality, I think it's quite obvious that Doyle simply seized on Bartitsu as a then-current pop-culture reference and wrote it in to explain Holmes' apparently miraculous survival.

    My favorite "in-game" theory is that Holmes himself invented Bartitsu during the early 1890s, kept it secret from the general public and then allowed his "top student", E.W. Barton-Wright, to go public with the art in 1899, after which Watson was at liberty to refer to it in his accounts (!)

    It's all in fun, and an amusing sideline to the study of Bartitsu as a historically real martial art.

    Also, like I said earlier I am very happy to see this revival taking place as I feel that it is a significant thing that should be celebrated. I just feel that the Holmes connection is a bit overdone though I certainly understand why it is being touted in the manner in which it is. I hope I did not come across overly critical in my earlier post. If I did, my apologies.

    Good luck with the project, I will be very interested to see how it goes in the future.
    You're a gent, thank you. I still submit, though, that the Doyle/Holmes 'baritsu' reference actually is very significant to the revival project.

    The late British judo historian and Holmesian Richard Bowen was intrigued enough by Holmes' 'baritsu' that he managed to track down copies of Barton-Wright's articles in the British Library. He also did a very thorough job of researching Bartitsu and Barton-Wright's life, towards writing a book on that subject. Unfortunately, he passed away before it developed into anything more than a set of notes; the Bartitsu Society plans to complete that project in the future.

    Bowen sent copies of B-W's articles to the EJMAS website circa 2000, and their online publication fueled the entire modern revival movement.
    Last edited by DdlR; 1/04/2010 1:15pm at .
  8. DerAuslander is offline
    DerAuslander's Avatar

    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    18,451

    Posted On:
    1/04/2010 4:15pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I need a good Bartitsu school to open near me.

    I'll learn just about anything that has a tit in it.
  9. Styygens is offline
    Styygens's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Baltimore, Maryland
    Posts
    2,171

    Posted On:
    1/04/2010 5:15pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I love history.

    It's very stimulating.
  10. Plasma is online now
    Plasma's Avatar

    Bullshido Admin

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    7,081

    Posted On:
    1/04/2010 5:41pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: 柔術

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
    I need a good Bartitsu school to open near me.

    I'll learn just about anything that has a tit in it.
    First is Korean Karate, then you take Stick and I to Korean Jujutsu and now you want to study British Jujutsu.

    Come on, if you really want to study Japanese Arts and be a Ninja that badly, we can find you a school.
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12 345 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.