224704 Bullies, 4191 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 41 to 50 of 106
Page 5 of 11 FirstFirst 12345 6789 ... LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. Lebell is offline
    Lebell's Avatar

    Just waiting for the paperboy.

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Lolland
    Posts
    12,496

    Posted On:
    12/30/2009 9:45am

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    over the years ive sparred with guys who came from a point (stop) fighting background but under 'full contact'/normal rules.

    Generally i noticed the following things: they stop ALL THE TIME, its baked into them, they make a lunge punch with no guard so i counter with an overhand one could see coming a mile away but it still gets them by srprise.
    they have no combinations in their skillset, just flashy quick attacks that dont even hurt.
    on which i take and counter.

    one time i sparred an exceptional arrogant prick and showed him a rougher version of his flawed ideas on standup sparring: he loved to do those nce spinning backward tkd kicks, i simpy stepped in, blocked the kick with my guard next to my head and sept his stasnding leg away.
    same with roundhouse: catch, sweep.
    he didnt understand what was happening.

    in short: point stop doesnt learn you 'control' it learns you how to throw weak undercommited punches and kicks.
    it doesnt learn you tiing or stamina: it gives you a false sense of security that the fight will stop after you pounched a guy once.

    it doesnt improve your footwork or timing because you can just leap forward and try a blitzhand/ridge hand and the fight will be stopped.

    i could go on, but i hope i made a point.
  2. Lebell is offline
    Lebell's Avatar

    Just waiting for the paperboy.

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Lolland
    Posts
    12,496

    Posted On:
    12/30/2009 9:47am

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    small addition, one of the most valuablelessons a bjj dude ever learned me was this mindset: so, what are you going to do after you pissed him off?

    all point stop fighters should print that question into their heads.
  3. Dsimon3387 is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    san francisco
    Posts
    3,079

    Posted On:
    12/30/2009 9:53am

    Join us... or die
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    No they do not. Training for full contact point sparring is not the same as insta hit stops.

    Full contact was allowed to the head and the body you had to block. These basics are ignored in a large majority of Point sparring organizations now.
    yes.

    Semantics? or something has the effect of causing some people not to call what you refer to as point sparring, i.e. many People mistakenly believe that if contact is allowed it is not point sparring. You can have as much contact in point sparring as you want.

    Point sparring in Karate evolved from Ipon Kumite.... and free sparring. Ipon showcases one technique, it can be practiced at any contact level with varying degrees of cooperation. It becomes more and more like free fighting when people get accurate enough to do it at that level... sort of like point sparring.

    The old Shotokan guys used to allow good hard contact with a minimum of techniques... originally front kick lunge and reverse punch. People squared off in front stances with a low block and fist at hip. it was all speed and accuracy, trying to catch with one of three techniques... the thinking in Japanese karate was ippon kumite and free kumite with limited technique would make one complete. Most guys from that era would have a problem comprehending the idea that someone charging in for a take down would not recieve, midcharge, a broken part of the body courtesy of a reverse punch. That was the perception (not agreeing or disagreeing with the strategy here).

    That was the old way then things changed... two trends evolved, the kickboxing stuff came in because the new old timers wanted to fight with full contact and with no stoppages. And: Some very gifted point sparring guys developed awesome techniques that were part of the evolution of karate. Pretty soon even in full contact point sparring guys were facing off sideways and throwing side kicks and ridgehands, then spinning kicks, etc.

    It is quite correct to say as you have that point sparring Evolved I think it is a pity that people let semantics and the belief that Karate stopped growing at some point, get in the way of seeing this point. I personally think better sparring gear was a major factor in this evolution... when I look at the stuff we used to bang around in... it is no wonder I forget names and numbers sometimes!!!:icon_conf
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  4. Lebell is offline
    Lebell's Avatar

    Just waiting for the paperboy.

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Lolland
    Posts
    12,496

    Posted On:
    12/30/2009 9:57am

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    a dude told me once that the idea about karate used to be to create a style of fighting that ends a fight with one decisive blow.
    the dude telling me was a martial artist and japanese and not some japanophile.
    i still don't know what to think of it.
    on the one hand i think it's a nice idea, and also a bit in the spirit of ipon shobu: one blow to end it all.

    on the other hand its better to be realistic and have a plan B for when this doesnt work.
  5. Kintanon is offline
    Kintanon's Avatar

    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Athens, Ga
    Posts
    5,683

    Posted On:
    12/30/2009 10:04am

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post

    the reason i bring this up is because there are plenty of guys who use a boxing, muay thai, wrestling, whatever background who might not be amazingly good at what they do, but still win fights and titles with it.
    Forrest Griffin is a perfect example of this. The guy is not that technically great at any aspect of fighting compared to other top guys in the UFC. But he's pretty good at everything, and works really hard, and it's enough that he does pretty well. He will never be put on the same level as Anderson Silva, or Lyoto Machida, or GSP, or BJ Penn when people talk about great champions in MMA. But the dude wins fights.
  6. Dsimon3387 is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    san francisco
    Posts
    3,079

    Posted On:
    12/30/2009 10:07am

    Join us... or die
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lebell View Post
    a dude told me once that the idea about karate used to be to create a style of fighting that ends a fight with one decisive blow.
    the dude telling me was a martial artist and japanese and not some japanophile.
    i still don't know what to think of it.
    on the one hand i think it's a nice idea, and also a bit in the spirit of ipon shobu: one blow to end it all.

    on the other hand its better to be realistic and have a plan B for when this doesnt work.

    Thing to realize here is that this idea is one idea in karate. The Okinawan Te did not have that idea until a teacher in the generation that preceded Funikoshi made this a characteristic of his school. In Sho Ran Ryu and Gojo (same in many respects when compared to other karate) the idea of one strike one kill is not part of the system.

    Gifted teachers elaborate concepts... One strike one kill is a nice ethic and a good goal much in the spirit of "aim for the sun and reach the moon." Those guys your friend is referring too? they hit hard and the karate guys I trained with would break something on you when they caught you. Maybe not kill you, but fighting with a broken rib is a major development.

    The only other thing I have to say here is that until Macheda came along it was hard to see any guys actually using karate tactics, distancing and techniques... they all looked like kick boxers and while Oyama's guys deserve respect they have a way they do things that is differnet than other full contact karate guys.
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  7. Goju - Joe is online now
    Goju - Joe's Avatar

    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    7,856

    Posted On:
    12/30/2009 10:09am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    so what we have here is either

    a) im doing a **** job of explaining
    b) youre an idiot
    c) youre being purposefully obtuse

    either way i cant explain this in simpler terms, so ill leave it at that.
    Thanks for showing up

    and

    a) Ignoring points made

    b) Using your own shitty tippy tap point sparring experience as the only point of reference you're willing to discuss

    c) Throwing up strawman arguments using non related examples

    Bravo!!
  8. Goju - Joe is online now
    Goju - Joe's Avatar

    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    7,856

    Posted On:
    12/30/2009 10:19am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lebell View Post
    over the years ive sparred with guys who came from a point (stop) fighting background but under 'full contact'/normal rules.

    Generally i noticed the following things: they stop ALL THE TIME, its baked into them, they make a lunge punch with no guard so i counter with an overhand one could see coming a mile away but it still gets them by srprise.
    they have no combinations in their skillset, just flashy quick attacks that dont even hurt.
    on which i take and counter.

    one time i sparred an exceptional arrogant prick and showed him a rougher version of his flawed ideas on standup sparring: he loved to do those nce spinning backward tkd kicks, i simpy stepped in, blocked the kick with my guard next to my head and sept his stasnding leg away.
    same with roundhouse: catch, sweep.
    he didnt understand what was happening.

    in short: point stop doesnt learn you 'control' it learns you how to throw weak undercommited punches and kicks.
    it doesnt learn you tiing or stamina: it gives you a false sense of security that the fight will stop after you pounched a guy once.

    it doesnt improve your footwork or timing because you can just leap forward and try a blitzhand/ridge hand and the fight will be stopped.

    i could go on, but i hope i made a point.

    I don't think anyone here thinks hard contact point sparring on it's own is sufficient

    Even going with the Machida example he cross trains.

    Machida also fights in a context in which he can follow up with his striking with, thros, trips, reaps and knees as well as ground and pound.

    Old school point sparring had some sweeps but this is another level.

    And even with Machida it's only been in the last year or so that he has really added the killer follow up.

    What Machida has done is use aspects of the hardcore point sparring mentality to hit and run with devastating follow ups.

    will other people adapt like this?

    Will other Karateka try to duplicate this?

    Is it a fluke or an actual strategic and technical skill set?

    I don't know but again it always comes to the same thing in MMA someone one breaks through with something different because they find a successful way to adapt something and others follow suit.

    What I do think some strikers will do is try to combine counter striking with sweeps and reaps and that the old school point sparring format is a good way to practice this skill set.
  9. Dsimon3387 is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    san francisco
    Posts
    3,079

    Posted On:
    12/30/2009 12:05pm

    Join us... or die
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Goju - Joe View Post
    I don't think anyone here thinks hard contact point sparring on it's own is sufficient

    Even going with the Machida example he cross trains.

    Machida also fights in a context in which he can follow up with his striking with, thros, trips, reaps and knees as well as ground and pound.

    Old school point sparring had some sweeps but this is another level.

    And even with Machida it's only been in the last year or so that he has really added the killer follow up.

    What Machida has done is use aspects of the hardcore point sparring mentality to hit and run with devastating follow ups.

    will other people adapt like this?

    Will other Karateka try to duplicate this?

    Is it a fluke or an actual strategic and technical skill set?

    I don't know but again it always comes to the same thing in MMA someone one breaks through with something different because they find a successful way to adapt something and others follow suit.

    What I do think some strikers will do is try to combine counter striking with sweeps and reaps and that the old school point sparring format is a good way to practice this skill set.

    An amusing aside to this point you make above. We always had sweeps when we fought and I asked a few teachers around town about why no throws? I was told that karate guys thought that throws were too slow. These guys felt that the quickest way to take a man off his feet was to whipsaw his ass.
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  10. Whathappened is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    611

    Posted On:
    12/30/2009 12:07pm


     Style: Wing Chun Kuen

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387 View Post
    An amusing aside to this point you make above. We always had sweeps when we fought and I asked a few teachers around town about why no throws? I was told that karate guys thought that throws were too slow. These guys felt that the quickest way to take a man off his feet was to whipsaw his ass.
    Well, sweeping somebody does unbalance them you know...
Page 5 of 11 FirstFirst 12345 6789 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.