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  1. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2009 2:04am

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    Quote Originally Posted by aznraven View Post

    IF
    I'm not wrong...Machida participates in the gloved+mouthguard karate events instead of JKA shotokan events...

    And yes, he is doing well in the MMA because he does both... the law of causation cannot refer back to point sparring but it seems that way to me...
    I don't consider gloves and mouth guard to be over protection.

    Point sparring with 16 OZ gloves, mouth guard, shin guards, chest protector and head guard is silly.
  2. aznraven is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2009 2:07am


     Style: ShinKyokushin/Shitoryu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goju - Joe View Post
    I don't consider gloves and mouth guard to be over protection.

    Point sparring with 16 OZ gloves, mouth guard, shin guards, chest protector and head guard is silly.
    LOL....only have seen that on TKD practitioners... :hello2:
  3. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2009 2:15am

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    Quote Originally Posted by ojgsxr6 View Post
    OG Kyokushin and I'm pretty sure other MA styles were able to 'spar' not fight with bareknuckle head shots and manage not to kill each other.
    Secondly while I like MMA, I'm not a huge fan and don't follow all the orgs. Machida is a good fighter but to put it bluntly if Machida's style of Shotokan was so great wouldn't more of the fighters from his father's school be champions in MMA? ie How the Pit and Team Quest have champs and fights in smaller orgs. basically what I'm saying is what makes Machida good is more than his point fighting style
    No one is going to disagree with that. But you can clearly see point sparring elements in his fights. Usually in how he evades and counters while mixing it up with trips and sweeps







    One reason you don't see a lot of fighters using karate is the fighters with karate backgrounds couldn't figure out how to keep the right distance to use their karate. Muay Thai and boxing with wrestling just walked through them.

    Machida uses a combination of pin point counter striking, sweeps and reaps and sumo (yes sumo) to confound people.

    If they rush in they get tripped.

    If the stay back they get smacked


    some of his timing comes from his point sparring experience.
  4. Whathappened is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2009 2:17am


     Style: Wing Chun Kuen

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    Quote Originally Posted by aznraven View Post
    LOL....only have seen that on TKD practitioners... :hello2:
    Yeah, I remember when I used to think iron shirt kungfu was teh **** when my senior took a TKD kick to the head and a sidekick to the gut in a demonstration.

    Having spent some time in ashihara Karate, I, like so many people have discovered... taking hits from a Singaporean TKD blackbelt isn't exactly an achievement.:toothy10:
  5. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2009 2:23am

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    Quote Originally Posted by aznraven View Post
    LOL....only have seen that on TKD practitioners... :hello2:
    To my great shame when I google goju and sparring it mostly looks like this :(

    I have never worn a chest protector and I don't like head gear to much.

    Although we basically use a sport ju jitsu style of sparring so I shouldn't brag either (It's still better than the armored to the hilt point sparring)
  6. alex is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2009 2:32am

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    using machida in an internet arguement is fast approaching the same kind of thing as using the nazis imo. you know why machida makes it work? cos hes fucking Machida Lyota. he could be a tiddlywink player and still beat the **** out of 99% of people. hes in that class that you put people like a younger roy jones and floyd mayweather- they have **** that cant be taught.

    point sparring? i spent my formative years doing point sparring, when i did karate as a kid and kung fu as a young adult. it didnt help me diddly **** when i started doing muay thai. and i almost spit milk on my keyboard when i read the OP- technique in a point sparring tourney? are you fucking with me? we must be watching very different things. this arguement has come up before and istill havent come across a compelling reason why a point fighter would have better footwork or technique than someone who fights full contact, simply because in one, your opponent gets a point before you, and in the other your ass gets beaten into silly land. i can imagine which one is gonna force better habits.
  7. aznraven is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2009 2:47am


     Style: ShinKyokushin/Shitoryu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    using machida in an internet arguement is fast approaching the same kind of thing as using the nazis imo. you know why machida makes it work? cos hes fucking Machida Lyota. he could be a tiddlywink player and still beat the **** out of 99% of people. hes in that class that you put people like a younger roy jones and floyd mayweather- they have **** that cant be taught.

    point sparring? i spent my formative years doing point sparring, when i did karate as a kid and kung fu as a young adult. it didnt help me diddly **** when i started doing muay thai. and i almost spit milk on my keyboard when i read the OP- technique in a point sparring tourney? are you fucking with me? we must be watching very different things. this arguement has come up before and istill havent come across a compelling reason why a point fighter would have better footwork or technique than someone who fights full contact, simply because in one, your opponent gets a point before you, and in the other your ass gets beaten into silly land. i can imagine which one is gonna force better habits.
    Err...calm down?

    People cannot cite a good shotokan stylist for that style because he is "special" in their eyes, then I advise people to also stop citing any other world-class champion fighters because they are all special...

    Mike Tyson is proof of the power of boxing? sure! No, but he was a extraordinary physical specimen at the age of 16, so I guess he can't stand as proof of great boxing...does that make sense to you?

    I never said point fighting helps in muay thai...want something that helps in muay thai....train muay thai...

    Technique is evident in karate tournaments...no fighting techniques, not boxing techniques, not muay thai techniques...KARATE techniques...

    If you want to argue that karate techniques are useful or useless, you can go start another thread, thanks...
  8. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2009 2:50am

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    Saying Machida is Machida because he's Machida is a cop out as well.

    Yes he's exceptional and I don't know if he can be duplicated

    But there are things he does that are clearly karate and point sparring influenced.

    It's like when I first saw the UFC an Royce and i thought "Hey he's doing ju jitsu like me" It took me 11 years to clue in that while the techniques were simillar the training, strategy and implementation was light years ahead.

    Alex, I am not knocking you but childhood point sparring experience would only be a valid comparison if it was similar to Machid'a childhood point sparring experience.

    Will Machida karate have a revolutionary effect on MMA striking.

    I doubt it

    not because it isn't effective but because boxing and Muay Thai do the trick.

    FYI other MMA fighters who grew up in Karate or TMA households

    Frank Mir, Jeff Joslin, GSP, Seth Petruzeli

    Mir recently went back to adding karate again (as well keeping his boxing )
  9. alex is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2009 2:53am

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    the reason it didnt help is because people walked through the flimsy tip tap **** habits that i picked up point sparring. difference in technique between karate and muay thai? guess what, theres a good punch and a bad punch. thats it. not a question of stylistic differences, in a full contact fighting art its gonna come down to whats effective, which is why muay thai adopted boxing style punches and why kickboxers started kicking like thai boxers. its very simple.

    you missed my point about guys like machida etc. ill try again for the people who arrived on the short bus- roy jones fights almost constantly with his lead hand at his waist. how many other people does that work for? **** all. he can do it because hes roy jones. not because hes a boxer. and he cant get away with it now cos hes too fucking old, but hopefully you understand my point a bit better now. or another example, mark hunt can fight without protecting his face cos the guy has a fucking indestructible chin. does that mean all kickboxers have indestructible chins? no. machidas timing and accuracy are spectacular, not because of karate, but because he is machida.

    the reason i bring this up is because there are plenty of guys who use a boxing, muay thai, wrestling, whatever background who might not be amazingly good at what they do, but still win fights and titles with it. who apart from machida can use karate that effectively in the ring? and i mean actually use it, not "well anderson silva has a black belt in tkd" etc cos that doesnt mean dick if they never show it.
  10. aznraven is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2009 3:00am


     Style: ShinKyokushin/Shitoryu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    the reason it didnt help is because people walked through the flimsy tip tap **** habits that i picked up point sparring. difference in technique between karate and muay thai? guess what, theres a good punch and a bad punch. thats it. not a question of stylistic differences, in a full contact fighting art its gonna come down to whats effective, which is why muay thai adopted boxing style punches and why kickboxers started kicking like thai boxers. its very simple.
    You went to fight a muay thai practitioner WITH point sparring, you should re-read my post and reply again.

    If karate has a bad punch and boxing has a good punch, that is the stylistic difference. Again, if you want to start which punch or kick is better, go start another thread. I'm not asking if your childhood-learned kick and punches are effective.

    And I believe Machida does not show much signs of "bad habits" like Roy Jones but smart fighting, lowering your lead hand when boxing is a very bad habit. Staying back and picking effective shots with mma gloves, is smart fighting...
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