Is Point Sparring Worthless?

**aznraven** · Posted On: 12/29/2009 11:38pm

Originally Posted by Goju - Joe

When you pad up as modern Point sparring does theirs almost no real consequence (pain) to getting hit and it becomes ridiculous.

But I stand by my original hypothesis that the original goal and style of point sparring as it was meant to be a useful training tool

My senior and me both got our nose broken from those point tournaments. My friend got sent to the hospital after being kicks to the lower abdomen...

I got a gash in my cheek from a head kick that wouldn't close for 2 weeks...

No consequences....I wouldn't go that far...less definitely because the JKA practitioners were sick of losing teeth and long recoveries...

**honest_truth** · Posted On: 12/29/2009 11:47pm

Originally Posted by aznraven

I don't know what dojo you learned in before but an "outstreched hand" does not score any points in any competition I've seen. Bower generation from basics is needed to score any point. Even if you manage to slam your hand hard into your opponent, a point won't be given...so...

i was emphasizing the stupidity of it, because they werent full out right cross hits, also face punching wasnt allowed, thats because our sparring was done with no gear.

think of it as Kyokushin but was point sparring with light/medium contact, and it frankly sucked.

If you meant full contact *point* sparring with no equipment where the point was to smash the other persons face, then yes, there is some use in that.

YouTube- Shotokan Karate!

but with the added protection gloves, mouthguards and headgear gives now-a-days, which allows for hard contact reasonably safe continous sparring, i still dont see the point of point sparring, in competition you still use some protection.

For the T3H 5TR33T any skills are transferable and you should have the timing, power, technique and speed overkill on the other chum anyways.

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 12/29/2009 11:57pm

Originally Posted by honest_truth

i was emphasizing the stupidity of it, because they werent full out right cross hits, also face punching wasnt allowed, thats because our sparring was done with no gear.

think of it as Kyokushin but was point sparring with light/medium contact, and it frankly sucked.

If you meant full contact *point* sparring with no equipment where the point was to smash the other persons face, then yes, there is some use in that.

YouTube- Shotokan Karate!

but with the added protection gloves, mouthguards and headgear gives now-a-days, which allows for hard contact reasonably safe continous sparring, i still dont see the point of point sparring, in competition you still use some protection.

For the T3H 5TR33T any skills are transferable and you should have the timing, power, technique and speed overkill on the other chum anyways.

Yes they are transferable but sparring with no equipment and continuous safe sparring with equipment on gives you two different approaches and techniques.

Fankly like Machida people should do both.

From a self defense POV Machida has the right idea, the best defense is don't get hit.

Machida wouldn't be Machida without the hard contact point sparring

**aznraven** · Posted On: 12/30/2009 12:04am

Originally Posted by Goju - Joe

Yes they are transferable but sparring with no equipment and continuous safe sparring with equipment on gives you two different approaches and techniques.

Fankly like Machida people should do both.

From a self defense POV Machida has the right idea, the best defense is don't get hit.

Machida wouldn't be Machida without the hard contact point sparring

IF I'm not wrong...Machida participates in the gloved+mouthguard karate events instead of JKA shotokan events...

And yes, he is doing well in the MMA because he does both... the law of causation cannot refer back to point sparring but it seems that way to me...

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 12/30/2009 12:06am

Originally Posted by aznraven

My senior and me both got our nose broken from those point tournaments. My friend got sent to the hospital after being kicks to the lower abdomen...

I got a gash in my cheek from a head kick that wouldn't close for 2 weeks...

No consequences....I wouldn't go that far...less definitely because the JKA practitioners were sick of losing teeth and long recoveries...

Your point sparring in Singapore is probably different than 99% of the point sparring in the US and Canada.

I don't blame the JKA for changing stuff but my point that PS was orignially intended for a different context than it is used for today still stands.

That's the number one problem with Karate is that all these bits and pieces which were originally intended as a means to an end have become ends in them selves and make no sense like having kata contest (might as well have a push ups contest)

**aznraven** · Posted On: 12/30/2009 12:15am

Originally Posted by Goju - Joe

Your point sparring in Singapore is probably different than 99% of the point sparring in the US and Canada.

I don't blame the JKA for changing stuff but my point that PS was orignially intended for a different context than it is used for today still stands.

That's the number one problem with Karate is that all these bits and pieces which were originally intended as a means to an end have become ends in them selves and make no sense like having kata contest (might as well have a push ups contest)

agreed, I still believe it should be done the slightly old way (halfway between the glove transition) where blackbelts and above fought with old JKA rules and juniors fought with gloves. I still do not understand the point of Kata competitions...it is basically testing your time investing in karate which can be done through kumite...

**ojgsxr6** · Posted On: 12/30/2009 12:34am

Originally Posted by Goju - Joe

Imagine you were training boxing as a bare knuckles sport and you wanted to spar with out killing each other (note spar not fight)

So how are we going to do this?

We can go full contact full tilt but limit to body shits, or we can include head shots and to make it relatively safe we will limit it to however gets the first three "good" shots in.

OG Kyokushin and I'm pretty sure other MA styles were able to 'spar' not fight with bareknuckle head shots and manage not to kill each other.
Secondly while I like MMA, I'm not a huge fan and don't follow all the orgs. Machida is a good fighter but to put it bluntly if Machida's style of Shotokan was so great wouldn't more of the fighters from his father's school be champions in MMA? ie How the Pit and Team Quest have champs and fights in smaller orgs. basically what I'm saying is what makes Machida good is more than his point fighting style

**aznraven** · Posted On: 12/30/2009 12:36am

Originally Posted by ojgsxr6

OG Kyokushin and I'm pretty sure other MA styles were able to 'spar' not fight with bareknuckle head shots and manage not to kill each other. Secondly while I like MMA, I'm not a huge fan and don't follow all the orgs. Machida is a good fighter but to put it bluntly if Machida's style of Shotokan was so great wouldn't more of the fighters from his father's school be champions in MMA? ie How the Pit and Team Quest have champs and fights in smaller orgs. basically what I'm saying is what makes Machida good is more that his point fighting style

Yes...I believe it is the mixture of point-fighting which give him a base of speed/timing and technique, followed by cross training in full contact, giving him realism in fights...

**DSL** · Posted On: 12/30/2009 1:02am

Back to the OP, I've found that my decades in point sparring helped my 'bubble' immensely, but hurt my hands etc. It really gave me a level of understanding of distance that I rarely see from someone who hasn't had that background. All boiling down to 'can't touch, can't score'. If you use that, along with angles, circling, counter-striking etc, then it works remarkably well, but ONLY after it's been augmented by wrestling, boxing, bjj, muay thai etc.

It's 'a' piece of the big puzzle that is MMA for me, and it's really helped me, but I've seen others get decimated by relying upon it rather than using the good parts of it only. So yes, it can be a good part of combat, as long as the user really understands whatever ruleset and uses it for what it's good for.

**Whathappened** · Posted On: 12/30/2009 1:02am

Originally Posted by aznraven

agreed, I still believe it should be done the slightly old way (halfway between the glove transition) where blackbelts and above fought with old JKA rules and juniors fought with gloves. I still do not understand the point of Kata competitions...it is basically testing your time investing in karate which can be done through kumite...

Kata testing is same as school paper quizzes/exams to maintain theoretical proficiency.
Sparring of any kind should be the same as practical quizzes/exams to maintain applicative proficiency.
Problems arise when branch organisations separated by geography and clout start playing politics to their own ends. Hence body armor and the tap-and-victory-dance mentality.