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  1. Devil is online now
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2013 1:20pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Yeah, my post was rambling. I've considered the issue(s) of teaching self defense in Judo for a long time. I decided not to a long time ago. The liability issues are too high, and I really do not believe in teaching kids self defense, other than what they can use of the Judo they learn.

    I agree that Judo has self defense applications. When I think of self defense, of course, the ability to throw/choke/armbar, deal with adrenline and stress, grapple, stay on your feet, and fight on the ground, and general physical toughness that Judo (if properly taught) can supply are very important.

    Perhaps I'm stuck in the mindset of self defense as the Krav like bear hug escapes, grabbing the balls, 3 Stooges poking the eyes stuff, all the situational responses to specific attacks. I did learn a lot of that from my first judo sensei, but as a master gunnery sergeant in the USMC, he was pretty practical about it, and it all built off of the basic Judo skills he was teaching.

    For myself, I just depend on my interpersonal skills, avoidance, and finally my general judo training for self defense. But I've been doing Judo a long time, have had the **** beat out me, and can take pain and suffering until I either pass out or get knocked out, and I'm willing to do what it takes to defend my self or my family.

    Anyway, I'd like to see some Krav Maga training that involves full on contact/speed. I looked at the Krav.com guys web page, and didn't see much if any of that...it's looks like a video shill site for the larger organization.

    To give the benefit of the doubt, lots of beginner martial arts training looks pretty crappy, and involves some "dead uke training (love that phrase...a dead uke is a crappy uke, as I tell my judo students...). But it's got to progress in resistance, speed, and contact over time as appropriate. If we could see that in Krav, it might be more believable.
    I'm with you for the most part but I'm all for teaching kids to defend themselves.

    Also, I'll take the comments about your former Marine instructor with a grain of salt for a couple reasons. First, there's nothing about being a Marine that makes you inherently more practical when it comes to evaluating the merits of martial techniques. Secondly, the Marine Corps martial arts program of old sucked major ass. The new program is probably a little better but nothing special. If you want to see evidence of hardened combat veterans touting shitty martial arts techniques, see the Fairbairn thread.
  2. Bayonet is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2013 2:42pm


     Style: Judo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    These are videos from a Local Krav school.












    Is this the real Krav? None of that strikes me as very effective. Nor does the sparring look like it is any more intense than an after school Sock'em Bopper session.

    I do see a lot of compliant Ukes, and lots of people assuming that their every attack will be accurate and devastating. What happens when these people get into a fight never knowing what a hard punch, kick or throw feels like? What happens when they revert back to their training and strike with the same force as they do in their "sparring" sessions? What happens when one of their techniques misses, or is ineffective? Do they get the training and experience to adapt to the flow of the fight, or do they keep attempting "Defense from Guy with Bat number 2"?

    I'm no fight guru, but a lot of these "deadly" "street self-defense" techniques leave me skeptical. These might work if you have a section of IDF at your back, but I wouldn't put money on them if you find yourself on the wrong end of a worldstarhiphop fight video...

    (oh okay you guys.... here's the Socker Bopper commercial...)

  3. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2013 4:19pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    I'm with you for the most part but I'm all for teaching kids to defend themselves.

    Also, I'll take the comments about your former Marine instructor with a grain of salt for a couple reasons. First, there's nothing about being a Marine that makes you inherently more practical when it comes to evaluating the merits of martial techniques. Secondly, the Marine Corps martial arts program of old sucked major ass. The new program is probably a little better but nothing special. If you want to see evidence of hardened combat veterans touting shitty martial arts techniques, see the Fairbairn thread.
    I'm judging what he taught from what I know now, and it was OK. The main thing was, you needed to be good at Judo to really make stuff work. All the "judo" self defense stuff is like that, for example, the Goshin Jutsu (of Judo) (antiquated as it is). Just learning "grab nuts and bitch slap" isn't enough...

    And I was in a Judo class, not the Marine corps...he was back in the reserves in our hometown teaching Judo at the YMCA.

    If I saw a solid program for kids SD I could be persuaded...
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  4. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2013 7:03pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    No, you're pissed because I'm making valid points that hit home and challenge your thinking on what is and isn't quality martial arts training. I promise you, I won't be running out of steam and I'll see this discussion through because I've been wanting to talk about this for quite a while now. Krav deserves more scrutiny. It's time to hit the brakes on the hype train. Members of this site should not be giving Krav a pass on its bullshit.

    I'm glad you understand the advantages of pressure testing. That has fuckall to do with the current quality of Krav training across the world. If you can't look at Krav and see the concern about dead training then I question your perception of what constitutes adequate pressure testing.
    I'm only casually interested in KM and I noted that it's suffered from being over-hyped in my first post in this thread, back in 2009.

    I invited you to post video because you seemed to be anti-Krav Maga in toto, which seemed like an odd position given the obvious disparities between the KM training of Mossad agents and American soccer moms.
  5. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2013 7:19pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    Where are these "personal attacks" you're talking about? He is saying you're wrong, but that's not a personal attack.

    He has already laid out his case against krav -- that it is overhyped, that it relies too much on static drills, and that its sparring doesn't teach its practitioners how to actually use its techniques -- so your claim that he is "out of steam" is kind of a cheap shot. He's "out of steam" because he's said all that he needs to say and no one has an answer. It would be easy for anyone to shut him up, though: show us this good krav that people keep talking about.

    In terms of training methods, all the krav I've ever seen looks a lot more like my aikido than like any alive martial art. And there wouldn't be anything wrong with that if krav didn't call itself a practical self-defense system. But it does.

    To my mind, a "practical" system of anything is a system that allows you to practice something the way it is actually used, and I don't see that in krav maga.
    Re. personal attacks (N.B. that I didn't take offense):

    You simply have visions floating in your head of sugarplums and ball kicking your way to absolute victory. You have warped ideas about "hardcore military training" and other such silly nonsense (...)

    Really, how does any martial artist believe this bullshit and buy into such crap training in this day and age? This line of thinking is a throwback to when martial arts instructors could get away with teaching anything under the sun. When their students would follow them like Gods because there was no way to prove them wrong. People who haven't moved beyond that now just aren't paying attention.
    IMO Devil has subscribed to a particular dogma; a short-sighted position that ignores the "pragmatic compromise" option that I've already described in some detail, citing his own example of Dog Brothers sparring. His response was "it's ****", suggesting that's he's become frustrated and run out of steam on that issue.
  6. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2013 9:52pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I'm judging what he taught from what I know now, and it was OK. The main thing was, you needed to be good at Judo to really make stuff work. All the "judo" self defense stuff is like that, for example, the Goshin Jutsu (of Judo) (antiquated as it is). Just learning "grab nuts and bitch slap" isn't enough...

    And I was in a Judo class, not the Marine corps...he was back in the reserves in our hometown teaching Judo at the YMCA.

    If I saw a solid program for kids SD I could be persuaded...
    Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    given the obvious disparities between the KM training of Mossad agents and American soccer moms.
    Show me the good stuff.
  7. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2013 10:03pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    His response was "it's ****", suggesting that's he's become frustrated and run out of steam on that issue.
    Except that I'm not frustrated and I won't run out of steam. I called it **** because **** is what I tend to call **** and Krav Maga is ****. You want to pretend there's some imaginary, nuanced line where it's okay to practice bullshit. A line where people who don't understand the value of **** are just "subscribing to a particular dogma" and it's them that's wrong. In actuality, there's really nothing wrong with eating a big steaming turd for Sunday dinner. It's not that Krav Maga sucks. No, that's not it at all. I'm just not smart enough to see how useful dead training is. That's the real problem here.

    You're using George Dillman logic. Hatsumi logic. The same logic every fat, impotent wannabe fighter has used forever to reinforce their own misplaced confidence and convince their unassuming flock how badass they are.
  8. slamdunc is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2013 10:14pm

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     Style: TKD, CMA & American Kenpo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    Show me the good stuff.
    I have heard from a reliable source, that it does exist; I too, would like to see it (the good stuff). I actually like the concept but don't want the soccer-mom **** either.

  9. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2013 10:17pm


     Style: aikido

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    IMO Devil has subscribed to a particular dogma; a short-sighted position that ignores the "pragmatic compromise" option that I've already described in some detail, citing his own example of Dog Brothers sparring. His response was "it's ****", suggesting that's he's become frustrated and run out of steam on that issue.
    Believing that something has to be trained against realistic resistance to be useful in real combat isn't a "dogma". It's a conclusion based on evidence. You are free to try and refute that conclusion with your own evidence, but don't call it a dogma. When you call it a dogma, you basically become the same as the creationists who claim that evolution is a position of faith.
  10. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2013 10:19pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by slamdunc View Post
    I have heard from a reliable source, that it does exist; I too, would like to see it (the good stuff). I actually like the concept but don't want the soccer-mom **** either.

    "I have heard from a reliable source that it does exist."

    Sounds like Ashida Kim talk to me.
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