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  1. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/12/2013 12:11pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    I have a question about Krav : What the **** is a discussion about Krav doing in the Western Combat forum??
    That question has been asked before. It's kind of a gray area; IIRC, KM was developed in Europe and then imported to Israel, and it legitimately does draw from Western combat sports, so on that basis I guess it's as valid as Bartitsu for inclusion on the WMA forum.

    We also had a bunch of threads early on in the development of this forum re. what constitutes on-topic discussion. Personally, I'm still keen for the WMA forum not to turn into a MAP-like "miscellaneous file" on the casual assumption that "Western = everything non-Asian". That has meant some hard choices in the past re. potentially interesting threads on African, Native American, etc. styles, which otherwise default to YMAS as the "general martial arts" forum.
  2. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/12/2013 12:23pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    If you think we're splitting hairs - allow me to clarify so we can put a stop to that. Krav Maga is a shitty martial art. The art and its practitioners deserve ridicule equal to that of a ninjer. Okay, maybe not quite as much as ninjers. They do spar. But it's a partially effective martial art riding a gigantic wave of hype. Krav Maga doesn't get enough of the negative attention it deserves here on Bullshido.
    FWIF, and I don't have much of a dog in this fight, what I've seen of KM varies enormously in quality from good, hard-core military H2H training to a kind of boxercize for soccer moms, with plenty of stops along the line between those two stations.

    Punching a heavy bag is not equivalent to the compliant partner drills practiced by Krav students. Heavy bags are used to practice the exact same techniques you will use when you're testing yourself through sparring. Compliant drills will never be tested in sparring. Instead, students will wait to do them for real when somebody wants to rape them in the butt and they hope like hell they'll just happen to work.
    Are you talking about soccer mom KM? I've been addressing the more serious stuff.

    You're being thick about safety precautions. I'm not arguing against safety precautions. I'm advocating for martial arts systems that teach people to plan to use the techniques that they've tested through alive training.
    I've already answered that point twice. Moving on.

    Do you really want to be the guy who relies on eye gouges and nut grabs? Haven't we beaten that argument to death here at Bullshido? I can eye gouge as well as a ninjer. But if I've been training in an effective grappling art, for instance I will be able to gouge your little baby blues from a superior and dominant position - not that I'll need the eye gouge because I'll have 100 other tested ways to hurt you. No need to be the eye gouge grandmaster.
    Yes - a good grappler will hopefully be able to use their superior grappling skills to establish a dominant position that will lend itself to eye gouges, trachea chewing and the hundred other nasty tricks that might present themselves as being useful at any given moment in a real, no-rules fight. That's why KM people spar as well as practice the nasty tricks.

    IMO, as I said earlier, it's possible to stretch the aliveness argument beyond its natural breaking point, at which point it simply snaps into a dogma that advocates combat sport training to the exclusion of everything else.
  3. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/12/2013 12:31pm


     Style: aikido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    FWIF, and I don't have much of a dog in this fight, what I've seen of KM varies enormously in quality from good, hard-core military H2H training to a kind of boxercize for soccer moms, with plenty of stops along the line between those two stations.
    See my previous post.
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...=1#post2797785
  4. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/12/2013 12:35pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    See my previous post (from 2009!):
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...=1#post2286039
  5. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/12/2013 12:35pm

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    Devil wrote:
    Here's the difference, and I'll use your knee drop to the face example. If you devise some way to incorporate your knee drops to the face into your sparring with some type of helmet or something, then you're training it in an alive manner and it has value. If you can't do that and resort to practicing a simulated knee drop against a non-resisting opponent, then you've accomplished little to nothing and you have no basis to assume you are more proficient at knee drops to the face than anyone else.

    Your statement about the Dog Brothers is flawed. They don't exclude techniques in the name of safety. Instead they developed a system to train their techniques safely. What they don't do is go around saying, "well, we're going to spar this way but we're going to fight this other way." And that's exactly what Krav Maga is doing wrong - training one set of techniques in an alive manner while simultaneously teaching students a completely different set of untested techniques that they're encouraged to use if they need to defend themselves.

    And your first statement about sparring is incorrect. The purpose of sparring isn't just to build mental toughness, endurance, timing, etc. Sparring also needs to test your technique.
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I don't have a lot of time this morning. But I'll say that the quantity and quality and methodology of alive training is an issue even in "alive" arts like Judo. So it's a thorny problem even if you throw out the "too deadly" "techniques" common in Krav Maga et al. How to incorporate truly "alive" training takes a lot of consideration on the part of a coach/sensei.
    I can only speak for Judo. Judo is obviously mostly practiced as a sport nowadays, as opposed to what a lot of judoka think was a more self defense oriented art originally. But Judo got sportified early on in it's history, and wasn't ever intended as PRIMARILY a self defense focused activity.

    How and when to incorporate live training is an issue in Judo, what techniques to practice and how as well, age and desire of participants, ability, etc. Even for hard core competitors, it is an issue, along with conditioning, mental emotional training, etc etc blah blah blah. I struggle with it as a coach/sensei every practice/season.

    If alive training is so great, why is it an issue? Because even withing the relatively "non deadly" (intent at least, along with no striking) art of Judo, one can only take so much full strength full speed against a fully (or even partially) resisting opponent before fatigue, injury, stress set in. I've seen it first hand and experienced it myself.

    The level of skill, experience and control needed to play at the edge of ability and danger, even in Judo (grappling), is pretty high. Now I imagine throwing in striking, even basics, and I see that requirement go even higher. Add in other aspects of "self defense" beyond mere "technique" (awareness, adrenaline dump control, legalities, use of force issue, etc) and it gets even more complicated.

    Fucking learning to be decent at the mere "sport" of Judo is damned hard enough ! At least it was for me !

    So now enter people purporting to teach self defense (krav maga as an example). If we assume that the teacher is legit, not just trying to make a buck (making money is fine, just gotta teach legit and workable stuff), he/she has a massive task to accomplish, magnified by the "seriousness" of self defense in the minds of his clients/students (and reality).

    So what's my point? I don't know, Devil. I agree 100% that live training is necessary for even the hope of successful self defense. Judo has it's "too deadly to practice live" techniques (although for highly skilled practitioners that is not necessarily so), but really development of self defense particularly striking died in Judo a LONG time ago.

    ****, I need to get back to work. I think that Krav could be workable if they would come up with a better system of incorporating live training into their program. Some may already. The main thing in fighting is the willingness to hurt another human being and take punishment in return. Live sparring helps with that...some people cringe at even casual contact with strangers, let alone slamming someone to the ground or strangling ...

    OK, back to work.

    ***Edit***'

    I don't even teach self defense at our Judo club. I'm not qualified, and I think it in general does more harm than good in giving people a false sense of security. Self defense for little kids is tricky, I do not believe most have the judgement, even with training, to not just beat the crap out of other kids.

    That goes for most of the stuff I see on the Internet vis a vis self defense training...force on force is necessary, and you need to feel pain and discomfort, get your ass kicked but not injured (seriously at least), and dish out punishment to another human being under (somewhat) controlled conditions. Technique is almost secondary.

    I don't think most folks are up for that. Just like they are not up for doing even "regular" judo.
    Last edited by BKR; 9/12/2013 12:48pm at .
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  6. BackFistMonkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/12/2013 12:54pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxKravMaga.com View Post
    Whenever discussing the pros and cons of specific martial arts or self defense systems it is a must to specify your goals. Krav Maga was not intended to win BJJ tournaments or boxing matches.
    Can you elaborate as to what it's intended purpose is ?
    Krav Maga is a practical and tactical system that teaches how to prevent, deal and overcome all kinds of violence and attacks. Krav Maga prepares the trainees in the subjects of self-defense, self-protection, fighting and combat skills, as well as skills to defend others, all in unique and comprehensive teachings and way.
    I would like to know what you consider unique to Krav Maga as far as skills you impart and the methods of teaching.

    Krav Maga is a horizontal system with a unique and logical approach. It is easy to learn and retain, performed naturally and intuitively, and practically be use under stressful conditions. An essential part of Krav Maga is its teaching process, methodology and ways of training.
    Why have you not produced any top tier MMA competitors or Vale Tudo participants? If there is truth in what you claim it would be a perfect training program and revolutionize programs around the world.

    Krav Maga includes the subjects of:

    -Prevention, avoidance, escape and evasion.
    -Dealing with throws and falls to all directions and angles.
    -Attacks and counterattacks, performed to all targets, distances, ranges, heights, angles, directions and in all rhythms. Executed from all positions and postures. Use of all sorts of common objects for defensive purposes.
    -Defending all unarmed attacks: punches, strikes and kicks. Releases from all sorts of grabs and holds. Defending all armed attacks and threats of knife and sharp objects; of sticks bars and other blunt objects; of all kind of firearms.
    -Dealing with the above attacks when sent from all possible directions and places; When are performed by a single or multiple attackers; When occur in all possible places, positions and postures. Including in confined or open areas; in an ally, staircase, car; On all types of grounds; In water; When free or in limited space of movement; While standing, on the move, sitting down, laying down on the back, side or facing down.
    Physical and mental control and disarm.
    Please provide video evidence of these training methods. Or describe the methods you use to train for situations such as you have described. Specifically the ones involving "in water" , "car" and "laying down.

    Do you also train to fight in hot tubs mounted in stretch limos?

    Krav Maga prepares the trainees to function in all circumstances and scenarios, in all combat and fighting environments, according to their needs, risks they are facing and job descriptions. Krav Maga enables and brings technical, tactical, physical and mental growth and improvements.
    What do you consider "combat" and what exactly are you trying to say you provide to students ?

    Krav Maga contains special approaches, tactics, techniques, subjects, drills and training methods for the different sectors: Civilians of all ages, men and women, young and old; Law-enforcement officers; Military personnel and units; Correction service officers and wardens; Security officers; As well as: Close protection officers; Undercover agents; Antiterrorists groups; Air-marshals; Special and commando units.
    Where did all this knowledge you impart come from? How many instructors do you have ? Who handles their certifications in all these skill sets ?
    Last edited by BackFistMonkey; 9/12/2013 1:12pm at .
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
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  7. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/12/2013 12:56pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Yeah, that doesn't address my point. My point is that calling something "military" does not necessarily lend credence to its effectiveness.
  8. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/12/2013 1:03pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    Yeah, that doesn't address my point. My point is that calling something "military" does not necessarily lend credence to its effectiveness.
    In that case, you misunderstood my point. I wasn't trying to gain street cred. by referring to the military, just accurately referring to the fact that KM was developed in the Israeli military and noting that the military H2H KM training I've seen is more credible than the soccer mom KM.

    I still want to know which flavor Devil has in mind. Video might be useful, though note that I'll be leaving for the airport in a few hours.
  9. Permalost is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/12/2013 1:12pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    The appropriate solution to deal with the training injury risk is to (1) develop solutions for training your oh so deadly techniques in an alive manner. For example, the way the Dog Brothers have done with knives and other weapons or (2) discard the untestable techniques in favor of other techniques which are equally effective but can be pressure tested.
    Have you been to a DBMA seminar? They definitely advocate aliveness but they don't discard untestable techniques. They consider a lot of real world stuff outside the scope of aliveness too, like jackhammer strikes (downward stick stabbing from a long 2 handed grip from top position) and how to knee someone in the back of the head from a modified side control. Things that even if you see them at gatherings, are usually done with light or simulated contact, because of the potential for injury. They neither discard them entirely nor do them at full speed and power.
  10. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/12/2013 1:19pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Have you been to a DBMA seminar? They definitely advocate aliveness but they don't discard untestable techniques. They consider a lot of real world stuff outside the scope of aliveness too, like jackhammer strikes (downward stick stabbing from a long 2 handed grip from top position) and how to knee someone in the back of the head from a modified side control. Things that even if you see them at gatherings, are usually done with light or simulated contact, because of the potential for injury. They neither discard them entirely nor do them at full speed and power.
    The phrase "pragmatic compromise" rings a bell ...
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