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  1. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2013 3:01pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    That's interesting to hear. I've been training in striking arts for over 30 years also, and if I had to start all over again I'd take up Judo, because I'd consider that to be the most generally effective MA. I guess its just a matter of perspective.
    The problem with Judo is that there is essentially no training in striking. The overall conditioning, physical toughness, training to fall safely, balance, movement, etc. is excellent, although a lot will depend on how the student trains, how much they compete, and stuff like that.

    For example, my primary judo instructor was a black belt in Shorin-Ryu karate also. They trained, sparred, and competed full contact. He also had a lot of "street" fighting experience (yeah, I know...but he in reality did). So I got a different perspective on using judo for self defense/fighting. He combined it with his karate training, would train "judo against karate" with his karate sensei, and stuff like that.

    I personally experienced the difference between striking and grappling for self defense/fighting when I was in grad school. I was running the club sports judo program at the university. The "martial arts club" did some type of Okinawan karate plus Taekwondo and Kali/Arnis. I know, TKD, BUT, we sparred full contact (and also whatever the ATA or WTF rules were at the time as well).

    I've posted this before, so I repeat myself. At first in sparring (striking), I got hit a LOT all over. I was probably better than average, as I had a very combative attitude from serious judo training (I was already a black belt in Judo at the time, and was promoted to 2nd degree black belt while I was doing that training). It took several weeks to get the timing down for blocking/evading/parrying/slipping punches and kicks. And I wasn't working with boxers, either...

    Once I did get some decent defensive skills down, I found I COULD use my judo effectively, although I never actually threw anybody on the hardwood floor, LOL. I sure wanted to, though !

    The instructors would yell at me "No throwing, Ben, no throwing", while laughing and watching me spar. They could see me angling to get close, or using strikes to close distance, etc.

    But doing Judo is no guarantee of having a similar experience...it's gonna depend on attitude, skill level, etc etc.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  2. CapnMunchh is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2013 3:03pm

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     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Training through/past exhaustion is more of a specialized situation to me. It does deal with adrenaline, but, the adrenaline hits you differently when you are exhausted to the point of collapse. In a non-exhausted scenario, the adrenaline is a lot more overwhelming. When exhausted, the adrenaline actually usually feels pretty damned good, especially if you have trained to deal with it when not exhausted.

    Most people have never even been yelled at much, or been physically threatened by another person (or animal). A few years ago, I watched some video on what you could probably call RBSD. The trainers made the point that being able to deal with the adrenaline was more important than the physical techniques. The first part of their training was to basically verbally abuse (severely!) the students and threaten them with physical harm. That sort of thing went on in conjunction with the physical side of the training.
    Good point, the adrenaline would hit different when one is not exhausted.

    One of the reasons why I do not dismiss the Krav or similar systems entirely is because there are people out there who, similar to those raw military recruits for which these systems were originally intended, really need to start out with training on how to deal with aggression even before they start learning technique. Doesnt do much good to train how to throw a punch if you freeze when the time comes. At least some of the people I saw in the KM class I attended definitely fit into that category.
  3. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2013 3:03pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    I'd like to see a MA system that trains gun defenses with simunitions, or at least with a water pistol, similar to the way that some people train knife defense with chalk or Sharpies. It bothers me that these people are treating a gun disarm without adding in any simulation of weapon discharge. I bvet they'd be surprised to see how many times they're getting shot.
    Yeah, that would be interesting. Add in the attacker not just letting go of the weapon, and or having even rudimentary weapons retention skill, and it would up the stress level as well.

    And they could use cut out trigger guards to negate the "too deadly" stuff to a large degree.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  4. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2013 12:08pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    Good point, the adrenaline would hit different when one is not exhausted.

    One of the reasons why I do not dismiss the Krav or similar systems entirely is because there are people out there who, similar to those raw military recruits for which these systems were originally intended, really need to start out with training on how to deal with aggression even before they start learning technique. Doesnt do much good to train how to throw a punch if you freeze when the time comes. At least some of the people I saw in the KM class I attended definitely fit into that category.
    People freeze in fucking judo tournaments, let alone when someone is ready, willing, and able to do them serious physical harm or worse.

    I went through TASER training last weekend, and we did a couple of "under stress" drills...with a guy coming at us with an arcing TASER with the promise that we would get "tapped" if he got to us before we had reloaded and re-engaged. I was able to control my understand and control my adrenal response because of my judo training and competition experience.

    But again, I had an instructor who understood the adrenal response, and trained me to be able to function with it, and I continued that after we parted ways.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  5. CapnMunchh is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2013 12:59pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    But again, I had an instructor who understood the adrenal response, and trained me to be able to function with it, and I continued that after we parted ways.
    Hard to do that in your typical civilian TMA school tho, isn't it? What do you do with your students, outside of a live competitive setting?
  6. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2013 1:56pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    Hard to do that in your typical civilian TMA school tho, isn't it? What do you do with your students, outside of a live competitive setting?
    Contact sparring of some sort. In judo, we do randori. That's a good start, and it freaks a good number of people out. In striking arts, getting punched kicked in the face or body I imagine, with different levels of contact and pads.

    Most people never get struck in their entire lives, and if they do, it's pretty traumatic. Start off with pads and big gloves...in judo the equivalent is nage komi (throwing practice) at different intensities and levels of movement and resistance. Mock tournaments, stuff like that (I use those to prep newbs for tournaments).

    It's up to the "civilian TMA schools" to come up with whatever fits with their syllabus, I would say. But first they have to realize they need to do it.

    In my case, I had a lot of one on one training with my instructor. We did things that most other students would have balked at. My Dad came by one evening (this was back in the late mid 80s) and watched us train. He took leave and came back after class to take us to dinner (myself and my instructor). The next day, Dad told me he could never do or take what I had been doing. He was kind of shaking just thinking about it. Whether it was the physical force being used, or just allowing someone to have that much control I don't know.

    And we were just throwing each other full force while doing full-on competition style movement and gripping (and attitude). We both would throw each other 5 times in a row, then switch, so I wasn't getting the crap beat out of me...I was 5'6" and 145 lbs, coach was 6'4" and 210 lbs, maybe that had something to do with it...

    Edit***
    Overall, some sort of performance pressure has to be brought to bear on the trainee. Some people are self motivated, others, no so much. There are some who simply cannot take physical/psychological pressure combined. They won't be around long for serious training (martial arts anyway). Others train for fun/social activity/fitness and don't WANT much if any pressure beyond maybe promotion testing (that can serve to some degree, though).
    Last edited by BKR; 11/19/2013 2:28pm at . Reason: Additional thoughts
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  7. CapnMunchh is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2013 3:44pm

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     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    In striking arts, getting punched kicked in the face or body I imagine, with different levels of contact and pads.
    In my traditional Shorinryu school we do body conditioning exercises like kicking each other in the legs, the ribs, banging forearms together, etc. This helps, but its not the same as sparring, which in my school is currently limited to prearranged bunkai and kumite. Ironically, reading about old Okinawan masters, I got the impression that these guys didn't shy away from a fight. Somehow, this got left out of "modern traditional training."

    This is one of the reasons I tried to experiment with KM, thinking that KM would up the intensity a bit, but that didn't work for me. I'm currently looking at a Tang Soo Do school. Its not full contact, but at least its sparring and its harder contact than just point sparring. I'm a bit over the hill for regular full contact practice anyway. The downside is that I can forget about getting any more grappling practice, and I may get stuck having to learn the upteenth variation of the same Pinan/Heian katas that I've been practicing for years. But I'll take what I can get.
  8. richdanahuff is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/17/2014 7:24am

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    Quote Originally Posted by darkmatter265 View Post
    I have found that when approached some people say its the best in combat situations and other say its all hype.
    I am deciding whether or not to train in it, but i would like to hear some opinions on it.
    Krav Maga is a legit fighting philosophy of the Israelis most of the fighting skills are borrowed from other disciplines except for the weapons disarming and use in fighting. The whole idea is for you to survive any situation with an intense response to an attacker or multiple attackers, in Israel that response may end in death.

    The Original KM in Israel is vetted through real battles fighting the PLO and other factions. Unlike some arts this is trained live and tested in combat. As you may guess it is always evolving based the reality of killing or being killed in combat. In laymans terms if the stuff doesn't work they discard it. We must remember the need for it was based off the H.A.G.A.N.A. movement around WW2 when the Jews were trying to survive the Nazi annihilation of their people in Europe.

    It is based off of a Jew Imi Lichtenfeld who took all the stuff Jews used in real life ad developed the national fighting system for the new Israeli military once Jews were given statehood in 1948. Keep in mind that what the Israeli military does is always evolving to meet real world threats. The civilian version in the U.S. is watered down as many friends can attest from training with their military, youget beat up in real fight scenarios in their training. In the U.S. it is hard to get a school insured that does this.

    In the U.S. it is watered down to the point of the local McDojo on the corner who is losing students can take a three week online training course and be a legit KM school. SO in the U.S it is hit and miss some schools are worried about the techniques to the point of absurdity while others understand the spirit of KM and that is extreme violence in any confrontation. The base of the art is an individual or small group outnumbered and fighting for their life.

    Again if the spirit of the Arts intent is there Israeli or not then it is worth training. And if you never get into a fight in your life or get attacked it is awesome fitness and a great confidence booster.
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