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  1. CapnMunchh is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/13/2013 3:20pm

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     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So I took a Krav Maga lesson at a school in Northern Virginia. Hereís how it went down.

    The approx. 50 min. class started with about a 15 min. warmup consisting of pushups, situps, and burpees, followed by 5 min. of shadow boxing. We then spent some time practicing getting up from a downed guard. For the first drill, we paired off, one of us in downed guard while the other held a pad waist high and approached so we could plant a front kick in the pad and then get up. The class then built on this drill a bit, the pad holder circling around, then approaching more quickly. Next the standing partner grabbed a leg and pulled or rolled us sideways, and we practiced kicking our way out of the grab. For the next drill we formed groups of four. One person in the middle was approached at different times by the other three holding pads, so we could kick or punch the pads. On the instructorís command, the person in the center would drop into downed guard, and would then have to try to get up, while those standing could grab his legs, etc. There was no sparring, but then this was a beginner class. I was told that the higher levels sparred light to medium contact, and full contact was optional. At the end of class, 6 people in gis trooped onto the mats for the next class in BJJ practice. Presumably there is sparring in the JJ class, tho I didnt ask.

    Conclusions: If youíve never studied a martial art and want to get in shape and learn some basic technique its not a bad way to go, assuming that sparring does indeed exist at the higher levels. The conditioning aspect was definitely challenging. One other advantage of the system is that it does train both standup and ground technique. However, if you already have basic striking and ground technique, are aggressive enough, and are capable of pushing yourself aerobically at the gym without a drill sergeant, there seems to be little to be gained in KM. Given the emphasis on conditioning and constant movement, it would be difficult to train advanced technique, which often requires a more measured pace. Again, this was a beginner class, and I did not watch the BJJ class, so these are limited observations.

    It was said earlier in the thread that KM and other military systems were not intended to create martial artists, but rather to instill an aggressive attitude in young recruits and give them something to use where before they had nothing. Thatís pretty much how it looked to me. KM wont make a MMA fighter out of you, but its no worse than some TMA schools that Iíve come across, which offer you a lot of mystical BS for your money, don't train you to fight, and don't even provide the conditioning.

    I did forget to ask what people who practice KM call themselves Ė Krav Magaggers? Krav Magillas? Krav Magoos? Maybe someone in BS can enlighten me.
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/13/2013 3:26pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    its no worse than some TMA schools that Iíve come across, which offer you a lot of mystical BS for your money, don't train you to fight, and don't even provide the conditioning.
    Bullshido YMAS 2005 called, he said thanks for the memories.
  3. Kovacs is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/13/2013 3:47pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Those drills are exactly why I dislike the Krav so much. As the old adage goes, if you can't beat one person you can't beat two, three etc so pretending to be able to kick your way up from a three-way stomping is just pure larping.
    "Won't fight me in the ring? Don't fight me on the street."
    Paraphrased from Bullshido.

    "You can't judge Martial Arts until you feel the joy of kicking someone in the face and not go to prison for it."
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  4. CapnMunchh is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/13/2013 4:00pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kovacs View Post
    Those drills are exactly why I dislike the Krav so much. As the old adage goes, if you can't beat one person you can't beat two, three etc so pretending to be able to kick your way up from a three-way stomping is just pure larping.
    Ironically, in Aikido -- another MA that is not widely regarded as realistic -- the emphasis in the four man randori was precisely the opposite. We learned to dodge left and move right, avoid contact, and get the hell out of there, because its optimistic to think that you're going to take on three guys who surround you.
  5. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/13/2013 4:09pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoMA10 View Post
    snip a lot of stuff...

    On the subject of techniques that will not work on trained opponents there are alot throws in Judo,but you only see a handful of them in grappling tournaments and even fewer of those techs in MMA tournament,its because alot of Judo throws rely on the opponent over committing when they strike which is something that even novice martial artist tend not do in controlled sparring sessions. These techs are still good for self defense,because a deranged attacker is likely to over committ out of agression,which make those judo throws as well as other TMA and RBSD techs viable.
    You know, you had me going for a while there. Then you opened your pie hole about Judo, which you know nothing about, obviously.

    Judo does not rely on your opponent over-committing to anything. Does it work if he/she does over-commit, well, of course ! Judo (if done by someone competent at it) works just like anything else...you use it when it's appropriate for the given situation. Which will generally be when your opponent is within grappling range. Judo training provides a lot more than just a bunch of techniques. The collection of techniques thing is one of the fallacies of most RBSD type training.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  6. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/13/2013 4:17pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    So I took a Krav Maga lesson at a school in Northern Virginia. Hereís how it went down.

    The approx. 50 min. class started with about a 15 min. warmup consisting of pushups, situps, and burpees, followed by 5 min. of shadow boxing. We then spent some time practicing getting up from a downed guard. For the first drill, we paired off, one of us in downed guard while the other held a pad waist high and approached so we could plant a front kick in the pad and then get up. The class then built on this drill a bit, the pad holder circling around, then approaching more quickly. Next the standing partner grabbed a leg and pulled or rolled us sideways, and we practiced kicking our way out of the grab. For the next drill we formed groups of four. One person in the middle was approached at different times by the other three holding pads, so we could kick or punch the pads. On the instructorís command, the person in the center would drop into downed guard, and would then have to try to get up, while those standing could grab his legs, etc. There was no sparring, but then this was a beginner class. I was told that the higher levels sparred light to medium contact, and full contact was optional. At the end of class, 6 people in gis trooped onto the mats for the next class in BJJ practice. Presumably there is sparring in the JJ class, tho I didnt ask.

    Conclusions: If youíve never studied a martial art and want to get in shape and learn some basic technique its not a bad way to go, assuming that sparring does indeed exist at the higher levels. The conditioning aspect was definitely challenging. One other advantage of the system is that it does train both standup and ground technique. However, if you already have basic striking and ground technique, are aggressive enough, and are capable of pushing yourself aerobically at the gym without a drill sergeant, there seems to be little to be gained in KM. Given the emphasis on conditioning and constant movement, it would be difficult to train advanced technique, which often requires a more measured pace. Again, this was a beginner class, and I did not watch the BJJ class, so these are limited observations.

    It was said earlier in the thread that KM and other military systems were not intended to create martial artists, but rather to instill an aggressive attitude in young recruits and give them something to use where before they had nothing. Thatís pretty much how it looked to me. KM wont make a MMA fighter out of you, but its no worse than some TMA schools that Iíve come across, which offer you a lot of mystical BS for your money, don't train you to fight, and don't even provide the conditioning.

    I did forget to ask what people who practice KM call themselves Ė Krav Magaggers? Krav Magillas? Krav Magoos? Maybe someone in BS can enlighten me.
    What was the context of the drill? That the guy on the ground had fallen, been knocked down, was taking a nap in the park and got jumped?

    It would be interesting to see if the next stage in the drill involved possible scenarios for HOW the person got to the ground in the first place, so a whole sequence could be practiced.

    I've got nothing against isolation type drills like that, I use them in Judo training all the time. But I do eventually put them into context relative to Judo competition.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  7. Devil is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/13/2013 4:54pm

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    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    It was said earlier in the thread that KM and other military systems were not intended to create martial artists, but rather to instill an aggressive attitude in young recruits and give them something to use where before they had nothing. Thatís pretty much how it looked to me.
    Despite the fact that you went to a Krap I'mgay class, I have generously bestowed rep upon you for coining the term Krav Magagger. Now, on to your point above......

    I don't doubt that's what you saw. Think about how ridiculous that is for a moment. That attitude makes sense in military training where time is short and weapons are the focus. But why the **** would a civilian pay shitloads of money over the long term to get training with a short term focus intended to simply keep noobs from shitting their pants and curling into the fetal position in a fight?
  8. CapnMunchh is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/13/2013 5:19pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    What was the context of the drill? That the guy on the ground had fallen, been knocked down, was taking a nap in the park and got jumped?

    It would be interesting to see if the next stage in the drill involved possible scenarios for HOW the person got to the ground in the first place, so a whole sequence could be practiced.




    I've got nothing against isolation type drills like that, I use them in Judo training all the time. But I do eventually put them into context relative to Judo competition.

    There was no context given. We were simply instructed to stand in the middle of the circle, punch/kick the pads, drop on command, get up again, repeat. The point of the exercise seemed to be "exhaust yourself and see if you can keep going," to develop a survival mindset. There may be value there for some people, but it was not value related to learning technique, or how to address a particular scenario.

    For one thing, all you could really do was stand in the middle of the circle and punch and kick the pads as they came closer, all of which were held at the same height. For realistic technique practice (assuming it were possible to really fight 3 guys without a weapon) I'd want to be able to vary technique as the situation demands -- move to the outside, fake, dodge, grab one and push him into another, foot sweep, punch to the face, etc. Hell, I couldn't even use the signature move and kick someone in the nuts.
  9. CapnMunchh is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/13/2013 5:24pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    Despite the fact that you went to a Krap I'mgay class, I have generously bestowed rep upon you for coining the term Krav Magagger. Now, on to your point above......

    I don't doubt that's what you saw. Think about how ridiculous that is for a moment. That attitude makes sense in military training where time is short and weapons are the focus. But why the **** would a civilian pay shitloads of money over the long term to get training with a short term focus intended to simply keep noobs from shitting their pants and curling into the fetal position in a fight?
    I agree. KM is a good short-term solution for someone who wants quick training. A civilian who is willing to devote more time and money is better served by going elsewhere. You get out of training what you put into it.
  10. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/14/2013 10:48am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    There was no context given. We were simply instructed to stand in the middle of the circle, punch/kick the pads, drop on command, get up again, repeat. The point of the exercise seemed to be "exhaust yourself and see if you can keep going," to develop a survival mindset. There may be value there for some people, but it was not value related to learning technique, or how to address a particular scenario.

    For one thing, all you could really do was stand in the middle of the circle and punch and kick the pads as they came closer, all of which were held at the same height. For realistic technique practice (assuming it were possible to really fight 3 guys without a weapon) I'd want to be able to vary technique as the situation demands -- move to the outside, fake, dodge, grab one and push him into another, foot sweep, punch to the face, etc. Hell, I couldn't even use the signature move and kick someone in the nuts.
    OK, I can see the point in the "keep going/survival" type of drill. If you go again maybe the will work on other skills/techniques.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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