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  1. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2013 1:36am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Man, that ninjutsu vid is terrible.

    *After 3 minute explanatory intro*

    "Okay, now we're gonna do something we clearly don't do often or ever, to prove that we totally use aliveness! "

    *puts gloves on the guy who's not getting hit in the face*

    *uke proceeds to attack with lunge punches and wrist grabs, tori is either entirely successful with choreographed technique or resorts to sloppy improvisation and crappling*

    "See?!? Ninjutsu owns! Just look at all the people gushing in the comments section!"
  2. erezb is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2013 6:47am


     Style: Boxing,Kickboxing K1

    -1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RandomTriangle View Post
    I would like to add that what the organization I am a part of, and the school I teach at specifically are doing is what I was always taught is supposed to happen with KM. We started with KMWW in 98 or 99. Back then they were the only origanzation I knew of doing KM on a large scale. They always promoted sparring and grappling. At the national training center in LA they had (and still do) no gi submission wrestling, boxing, and Muay Thai classes being taught in addition to the KM fight classes. So the attitude from the national center from the beginning was that you needed to be able to fight.

    My instructor was in the first licensing program they had. He always told me Krav Maga was supposed to evolve. That Imi (the founder) intentional left two spaces in the circle on the symbol for km. That the space at the top was to let good techniques in and space in the bottom was to let bad techniques out. That one of the reasons Imi picked Darren Levine to run KM on the west coast was because of his work as a DA. That he would be in a position to see trends in criminal activity. He was given the power to officially make changes in the system and it would still be officially Krav Maga.

    I was actually at one of the curriculum "updating" events. No they didn't invite me, they invited my coach, but he brought me with him. The top 10 or so instructors in the US were there going over techniques and asking,"what do we need to change? What do we need to add and what do we need to delete?" I know for a fact there was far less grappling in KM in the late 80's before the UFC popularized grappling. KM addressed the issue by working with some Gracie (I forget who) to add more ground defenses.

    Fast forward 10 years my instructor broke away from KMWW and decided to form his own organization, Krav Maga Universe. He adapted the same vetting process for its official curriculum. He added even more ground work. You will find half guard techniques, techniques from turtle, and other groundwork that would be unnecessary in a basic self defense program, but needed in a well rounded fight program in KMU.

    Now I know we are just one organization, but I'd like to imagine we are not the only ones doing it right. Maybe I am wrong? We do encourage cross training. At our own gym I teach gi and no gi bjj, and have an incredible Judo coach, 6th Dan Joe Condello. We have had pro mma and San Da fighters teach fight classes for us. We believe you need both the basic self defense and the fighting.
    Sounds really good. I remember reading somewhere that one of the first branches was a KM based on judo. I think whether it is grappling or striking which is the bread and butter of your KM, you need to teach the basics real good, just as good as the purist would, and than add more and more of the "street" techniques. As i said before, we would use to spar every class, full contact. Even some of the escapes were actually full force tested (involving grappling). I can't understand what whats his name wants to see. I have shown him KM sparring he calls it kick boxing..i tell him great, that is actually a great dill of KM..i guess he has little knowledge of what goes on there, he thinks it is an ancient Chinese stile or some ****. I don't know of a single technique in KM that is considered a pure KM invention, it is a gathering of stuff that works. And, the majority of the drills are simple, and work. Head butting and ball slapping in addition to punches and throws is useful.
  3. erezb is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2013 7:00am


     Style: Boxing,Kickboxing K1

    -2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    Yes. I know nothing. Yet nobody here can successfully defend the merits of Krav Maga against me. Quite telling, indeed.
    I did, you loose .
    By the way, why would you say that none of the KM techniques taught never works?
    Head butting doesn't work? ball slapping doesn't work? (do you even have balls??) foot stomping (ufc baby) doesn't work? punching kicking and defenses against it does not work? It does work, it does.
  4. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2013 9:08am


     Style: aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by erezb View Post
    I did, you loose .
    By the way, why would you say that none of the KM techniques taught never works?
    Head butting doesn't work? ball slapping doesn't work? (do you even have balls??) foot stomping (ufc baby) doesn't work? punching kicking and defenses against it does not work? It does work, it does.
    Where in this thread has Devil picked out any particular techniques and said they don't work? What Devil is saying is that to make anything work, you need to practice it against realistic resistance, and that a lot of krav's techniques aren't practiced against realistic resistance.
  5. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2013 10:26am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    Where in this thread has Devil picked out any particular techniques and said they don't work? What Devil is saying is that to make anything work, you need to practice it against realistic resistance, and that a lot of krav's techniques aren't practiced against realistic resistance.
    Maybe all the real training vids are kept away from public view so as to not give away the secrets of Krav Maga training.

    Back at the village idiot, the problem is one of training, not specific techniques (although no doubt some of the techniques might be found lacking in effectiveness).

    I think the focus is on RBSD stuff...not on the crappy kickboxing/boxing/grappling (expected in noobs or those who do not specialize or who have not been trained well in striking/grappling).

    To me there is also a cart before the horse type of situation going on, and I deal with it in teaching Judo as well. For example, it is very important in Judo to get a good grasp of the basics of movement, posture, tai sabaki (body control/turning), gripping, et al to build a solid base for throwing/grappling. Without that, time and time again, I've seen people fail to be the best they could be at Judo. So I emphasize basics a lot, to the exclusion of more complicated stuff.

    At the same time, people want to compete, and feel that what the have learned/are learning is effective. But competition brings in a lot of other factors to consider. Ideally, competing is viewed as an extension of training, so losing a match (fight?, LOL!) is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. So I have to strike a balance between basics and application (although to me that is kind of an artificial divide...).

    Some judo coaches advocate teaching competition (Reality based ?) judo. Everything revolves around the competition. No to little ukemi, gymnastics and applications to "turn out" of throws, "grip fighting", full commitment in all throws (basically fall on uke/drive uke into tatami), tactics, mindset, etc.). This would be to NOOBS !

    Now, in self defense training, I imagine the same teaching/coaching/pedogogical issues exist in Krav Maga (or any other RBSD). People learn motor/cognitive/affective skills pretty much the same way within a range of possibilities. So RBSD/Judo, it's not going to matter so much, especially for noobs.

    However, the outcome of a "real" application of self defense skills has or can have huge consequences (versus a judo "fight"). And I mean really defending oneself, not just practicing "the deadly". So,

    So to me, it looks like Krav Maga takes the above noted "competition (reality?) based approach to training. Students learn real world applications right away, do them crappily (as in the RB judo training), and probably some basics of how to strike/grapple, but get better with time. The idea is (in Judo) is that it's best to practice the "reality based" stuff first, because you develop the reactions and overall way of doing judo that is best if you want to succeed in competition. Of course, it looks like **** at first, but with time, the student gets better and better, and doesn't have to unlearn horrible habits like how to do ukemi.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  6. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2013 11:36am


     Style: Bowie

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    Which is a perfectly reasonable assumption because this is a krav maga thread.
    In which he's already commented on Ninjitsu and Judo and maybe others that I missed. Strange for a krav maga thread.

    Then what are you doing here? Go argue about not krav maga in a not krav maga thread. This is not YMAS; threads here are supposed to stay on topic.
    By including commentary on Ninjitsu, Judo, etc. in the krav maga thread? C'mon now. Good for the goose.

    I just wanted some insight into his previous martial arts experience so that I could form some idea of where he was coming from. It's clear that he's not going to be polite and, instead, prefers to imply homosexual interest on my part. I'm not worried about my reputation though. The Pope says it's no big deal.
  7. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2013 12:49pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 血鷲

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    It's clear that he's not going to be polite and, instead, prefers to imply homosexual interest on my part.
    Devil is trying to be either Sirc or Cracky.

    Being smaller than the former and slower than the latter, he has quite an uphill battle.

    Do try to sympathize.
  8. Kovacs is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/09/2013 12:57pm


     Style: 5x5, 5.56mm

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    Where in this thread has Devil picked out any particular techniques and said they don't work? What Devil is saying is that to make anything work, you need to practice it against realistic resistance, and that a lot of krav's techniques aren't practiced against realistic resistance.

    This is one of my main gripes with Krav. The techniques are fine on paper but as stated without realistic resistance they're worthless, it's just larp. Krav is often sold to me as a jack-of-all-trades style but I can't help but see that as a negative becouse it trains its myriad of styles so badly. Unless a Krav practitioner has a decent background in anything, Krav training will teach you nothing but bad habits and a dangerously high sense of security.

    If it was trained correctly through resistance, proper sparring, competition and dropped its retarded scenarios it would be; guess what? MMA.
    "Won't fight me in the ring? Don't fight me on the street."
    Paraphrased from Bullshido.

    "You can't judge Martial Arts until you feel the joy of kicking someone in the face and not go to prison for it."
    Mrs Kovacs.
  9. Devil is offline
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2013 3:58pm

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    7
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bayonet View Post
    I'm of the opinion that Krav Maga was never meant to be a full fighting system, but only an introduction to dirty fighting for new troops who may have never been in a physical encounter before.

    I've never done KM, but I did serve in the Infantry and regularly had to qualify in our Close Quarter Combat training. It's pretty Krav-Mag-ish, also largely derived from Fairbairn's WW2 stuff. Dirty tricks, nut-kicking, eye poking, etc. All the super-deadlyz that work so well on the streets of the internet.

    Now, the thing is, we were always reminded by the instructors that we were not billy-badasses. We were told that, if we were to go play pokey-chest with anyone who actually knew how to fight, we'd get our asses kicked, CQC or no CQC. (This happened with some regularity, too. Despite all of us being trained in 'teh deadly' it was taken as a given that the guys with previous 'sport fighting' experience would school anyone without. Even when it came to stuff like the pugil sticks.)

    Essentially, the idea was to impart some basic fighting techniques and fighting attitude, so that the soldier could fight desperately until the rest of his platoon showed up and chowdered the attacker. That's it. It was never intended to be more than a 3 week martial arts introduction/refresher. It's a slightly trumped-up version of a ladies self-defense class, geared towards young meatheads with muscle and guns, and we all knew it.

    That is, we who are/were in the army or active in martial arts knew it. All of the Walter Mitty types and COD commandoes never get that first hand knowledge. They're on the outside looking in. They only see that a military does it, assumes it must be deadly, and then spend their lives playing copy-cat so they can feel like those cool soldier guys they coulda-woulda-shoulda been. Then they develop some circle-jerk echo chamber culture so they can dress up in mismatched mil-surp and remind each other that they're all special forces killing machines. That's the problem. It's not self-defense. It's fantasy re-enactment. It's cargo-cult combat training.


    TL;DR = Krav sucks and **** you.

    Smart man right here. You've got it exactly right.

    Your thoughts on military training are dead on. The entire goal of standard military hand to hand is to give you SOMETHING, not to make you any good. The training I got at boot camp was fucking terrible and I knew it because I had previous training.

    The other purpose of hand to hand training is to foster aggressiveness. On Parris Island they put us in a "boxing ring" approximately the size of a phone booth and had us duke it out. Were they teaching us to box? Hell no. They were teaching us to scream and punch a ************ who was screaming and punching us. That's it. Making sure you are willing to fight is the real purpose.

    I have a long standing pet peeve with any martial art or martial artists that justifies their methodology with a long list of military secret squirrels who use it. **** that. The military in general knows jack **** about unarmed fighting. I think it's probably gotten a little better like the rest of the martial arts world with the impact of the MMA revolution. But it's still low on the list of **** they care about or excel at.

    The best hand to hand fighting is found in the civilian world. In fact, I know a group of MMA fighters and BJJ practitioners who used to teach some classes on Fort Bragg. The first thing they would do is put every one of the soldiers in a line and submit them one by one to get their attention before they started teaching. There are some serious martial artists in the military of course, but the idea that the world should be nut riding on the Israeli military or the Navy Seals or whatever is just stupid. I've seen a Navy Seal in a lunch line on a ship get fucking stretched by a 5 foot Marine who never had a day of training in his life. Don't believe the hype.

    This brings me to another thing that rubs me the wrong way about Krav, which you touched on a bit. The goddamn paramilitary wannabe bullshit. It never fails. When you see Krav you're almost always going to see a room full of 20 something yuppies who never had the balls and/or inclination to be in the actual military. Yet, all of a sudden they decide they're going to be these deadly tactical war gods. Fucking bunch of pansy ass posers. They're going to sit there feeling like badasses while they're learning from some other yuppie in fatigues who learned everything there is to know about death from a Krav school in a strip mall.

    Peckerheads.
  10. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2013 4:04pm


     Style: aikido

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    In which he's already commented on Ninjitsu and Judo and maybe others that I missed. Strange for a krav maga thread.

    By including commentary on Ninjitsu, Judo, etc. in the krav maga thread? C'mon now. Good for the goose.
    He was referencing those things to make a point about krav maga, at least in all the posts I saw.

    I just wanted some insight into his previous martial arts experience so that I could form some idea of where he was coming from. It's clear that he's not going to be polite and, instead, prefers to imply homosexual interest on my part. I'm not worried about my reputation though. The Pope says it's no big deal.
    Oh hay, meet Devil.

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