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  1. Devil is online now
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2013 10:20pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RandomTriangle View Post
    Well that's not really fair because the people who enjoy the ground work the most often end up wanting to cross train. I personally started in KM before I trained BJJ. I enjoyed the grappling/ground work we did. The instructor was a 2nd brown in Judo, kickboxer, and into heavy contact sparring before teaching Krav Maga. When the school I was training at hired a BJJ instructor I jumped at the chance and never looked back. I also never stopped training Krav Maga. My Krav Maga instructor encouraged everyone to cross train.

    Now I am a Krav Maga instructor. And in all fairness, you are right, my Krav Maga students that I consider blue belt level do SOME BJJ. But that's because I encourage it.

    Do you feel that me encouraging students to cross train detracts from Krav Maga's effectiveness?
    Show me the videos of good Krav Maga. Videos where they're doing their silly RBSD bullshit in an alive manner.
  2. BackFistMonkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/04/2013 11:50pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    Show me the videos of good Krav Maga. Videos where they're doing their silly RBSD bullshit in an alive manner.
    Dude. You are not aloud to upload murder to YouTube! If you used nimpo tai... I mean wing ch .... I mean krav maga against resistance , mother fuckers will die.

    Devil just stop trying to set these here asskickers up, just cause you are jealous of their secret knowledge of self-defense and combat survival.

    ---sent from public transportation using my PFX 9687 while laughing at the underprivileged.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
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  3. RandomTriangle is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/05/2013 11:05am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As I said the self defense aspect isn't truly training with resistance because like ANY other system the escapes have to be somewhat compliant. We dont really kick each other in the groin. BUT then you add sparring/grappling.

    I mean haven't you seen the Gracie self defense stuff? Zero resistance. But then they add resistance training.

    We do the same thing. The only question is whether or not you think dead drilling has value. I think it does. We are trying to engrain a reaction. Exhaust students, then have react to varied threats according. Under stress **** breaks down, even somewhat compliant attacks. The sparring/grappling is needed for when Things dont go accoding to plan. But it is often geared towards getting to your feet quickly or disengaging from a stand up situation as quickly as possible. It's a simple formula. Why is this so hard to grasp?

    Krav Maga does a great job of systemizing defenses to make them easier to learn. But afterwards you need to add the fighting. You need both. The self defense can teach tactics, technique, and mindset to help someone deal with the intial attack. But you need the fighting for when the guy attacking you doesn't go down from that kick to the groin.
  4. RandomTriangle is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/05/2013 11:11am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would like to add that what the organization I am a part of, and the school I teach at specifically are doing is what I was always taught is supposed to happen with KM. We started with KMWW in 98 or 99. Back then they were the only origanzation I knew of doing KM on a large scale. They always promoted sparring and grappling. At the national training center in LA they had (and still do) no gi submission wrestling, boxing, and Muay Thai classes being taught in addition to the KM fight classes. So the attitude from the national center from the beginning was that you needed to be able to fight.

    My instructor was in the first licensing program they had. He always told me Krav Maga was supposed to evolve. That Imi (the founder) intentional left two spaces in the circle on the symbol for km. That the space at the top was to let good techniques in and space in the bottom was to let bad techniques out. That one of the reasons Imi picked Darren Levine to run KM on the west coast was because of his work as a DA. That he would be in a position to see trends in criminal activity. He was given the power to officially make changes in the system and it would still be officially Krav Maga.

    I was actually at one of the curriculum "updating" events. No they didn't invite me, they invited my coach, but he brought me with him. The top 10 or so instructors in the US were there going over techniques and asking,"what do we need to change? What do we need to add and what do we need to delete?" I know for a fact there was far less grappling in KM in the late 80's before the UFC popularized grappling. KM addressed the issue by working with some Gracie (I forget who) to add more ground defenses.

    Fast forward 10 years my instructor broke away from KMWW and decided to form his own organization, Krav Maga Universe. He adapted the same vetting process for its official curriculum. He added even more ground work. You will find half guard techniques, techniques from turtle, and other groundwork that would be unnecessary in a basic self defense program, but needed in a well rounded fight program in KMU.

    Now I know we are just one organization, but I'd like to imagine we are not the only ones doing it right. Maybe I am wrong? We do encourage cross training. At our own gym I teach gi and no gi bjj, and have an incredible Judo coach, 6th Dan Joe Condello. We have had pro mma and San Da fighters teach fight classes for us. We believe you need both the basic self defense and the fighting.
  5. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/05/2013 8:43pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RandomTriangle View Post
    I would like to add that what the organization I am a part of, and the school I teach at specifically are doing is what I was always taught is supposed to happen with KM. We started with KMWW in 98 or 99. Back then they were the only origanzation I knew of doing KM on a large scale. They always promoted sparring and grappling. At the national training center in LA they had (and still do) no gi submission wrestling, boxing, and Muay Thai classes being taught in addition to the KM fight classes. So the attitude from the national center from the beginning was that you needed to be able to fight.

    My instructor was in the first licensing program they had. He always told me Krav Maga was supposed to evolve. That Imi (the founder) intentional left two spaces in the circle on the symbol for km. That the space at the top was to let good techniques in and space in the bottom was to let bad techniques out. That one of the reasons Imi picked Darren Levine to run KM on the west coast was because of his work as a DA. That he would be in a position to see trends in criminal activity. He was given the power to officially make changes in the system and it would still be officially Krav Maga.

    I was actually at one of the curriculum "updating" events. No they didn't invite me, they invited my coach, but he brought me with him. The top 10 or so instructors in the US were there going over techniques and asking,"what do we need to change? What do we need to add and what do we need to delete?" I know for a fact there was far less grappling in KM in the late 80's before the UFC popularized grappling. KM addressed the issue by working with some Gracie (I forget who) to add more ground defenses.

    Fast forward 10 years my instructor broke away from KMWW and decided to form his own organization, Krav Maga Universe. He adapted the same vetting process for its official curriculum. He added even more ground work. You will find half guard techniques, techniques from turtle, and other groundwork that would be unnecessary in a basic self defense program, but needed in a well rounded fight program in KMU.

    Now I know we are just one organization, but I'd like to imagine we are not the only ones doing it right. Maybe I am wrong? We do encourage cross training. At our own gym I teach gi and no gi bjj, and have an incredible Judo coach, 6th Dan Joe Condello. We have had pro mma and San Da fighters teach fight classes for us. We believe you need both the basic self defense and the fighting.
    Cross training doesn't justify the portion of your training that is crap. I know an accomplished, advanced BJJ practitioner who is also still a card carrying ninjer. He was a ninjer first and still swears by it. I don't know if he still truly thinks it's A-okay or if he just pretends it's awesome because he gets paid to teach it. Either way, he's a knucklehead in my book.

    Same deal with Krav. Dead uke training is dead uke training. No amount of effort to justify it will suffice. If someone can fight despite wasting a portion of their training time, it doesn't change a thing.
  6. gregaquaman is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/06/2013 2:18am

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     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Yes, grading (testing) is a demonstration of being able to do the technique "technically" correctly, that you understand principles, etc.

    Judo, BJJ, et al. have competition aspect to show the success in the "fully resistant" situation.

    The problem I have with what I saw in the video (and it wasn't all bad...the woman is obviously fit and combative within the limitations of the video, is that I'm not sure she is training against being even simply grabbed by someone who doesn't intend to stop...let along punched full on in the face or body (that **** hurts ! I hate it!).

    I know for a fact that when a stronger SOB grabs you and doesn't want to let go, getting away is a VERY difficult...and I"m a 3rd degree black belt in Judo !

    I didn't really see any of that in the video I posted.

    I guess I"m having hard time describing something less obvious...intent. The uke has to be able to project intent to harm/control/ and act on that, but be able to stop if necessary. So the problem may also be one of skilled training partners as well.

    ***edit***
    I think a lot of what we see in these videos of Krav Maga training, the sparring as well, could be suffering the fact that at times it's two (or more) noobs just whaling on each other. Noobs that probably have no or little combative experience, so the attacks are pulled, weak, technically bad (which is good to work against as well, not everyone is a golden gloves boxer level).

    But most of all, as Ezrb hinted at, is that these are noobs who are paying money to learn to fight/defend themselves. And they are being catered to (to be clear, I'm not saying ALL Krav schools are doing that) with profit in mind. If they dont' feel they are getting their money's worth, well, it's out the door.

    We deal with that at our judo club. Many parents expect Little Joanie to automatically get the next "belt" regardless...kind of a social promotion. Well, I just don't do it that way. And people get pissed because the apple of their eye doesn't get that orange belt, and bitch, then leave.
    Krav needs to walk down the same route as MMA needs to and sometimes dosen't

    Master of all styles.

    None of the silly excuse stuff. muay thai, bjj, wrestling, boxing need to be incorporated as drills and you need to train with the guys in that feild in the systems they specialise in without bullshit excuses about how you don't specialise.

    That is the only way you can get a mixed system right.

    Then on top of this basic technical core that works go all street.

    This is what I do for restraint and control. I sneak it into my mma sparring.
    Whitsunday Martial Arts Airlie Beach North Queensland.
    http://www.facebook.com/#!/WhitsundayMartialArts
  7. RandomTriangle is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/06/2013 12:20pm


     Style: Judo-Brown

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Devil so you feel there is zero value in training a technique that cannot be trained with full resistance. I disagree. I think a large spectrum of resistance should be used with different aspects of training. Grappling training being really the only area where you can go 100%.

    Greg, I pretty much agree.
  8. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/06/2013 1:32pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RandomTriangle View Post
    Devil so you feel there is zero value in training a technique that cannot be trained with full resistance. I disagree. I think a large spectrum of resistance should be used with different aspects of training. Grappling training being really the only area where you can go 100%.

    Greg, I pretty much agree.
    I think there is very limited value in training techniques that can never be tested or proven effective or workable under stress. But the problem with Krav goes much deeper than that. Not only are most Krav students not testing their technique, most of them are practicing shitty technique that has never been tested or proven ANYWHERE.

    They're relying on shitty technique and they have no idea it's shitty. Like the stupid knees you see everywhere in Krav videos where they "control" their opponent by grabbing one shoulder with both hands and knee him repeatedly as if the guy couldn't escape. You're a grappler. You know that's bad technique.

    The shitty punches. The shitty kicks. The delusions they have about the effectiveness of nut grabbing. It's bad training. The fact that some people cross train doesn't excuse that. But regardless, the truth is that the vast majority of these shitbirds aren't cross training effectively. Hell, how many martial artists really cross train effectively? In reality, most Krav practitioners will train predominantly with dead technique against a non-resisting opponent and walk away with a false sense of security.

    Every Krav practitioner wants to argue that they spar or that Krav isn't really a system unto itself. But until they can demonstrate the ability to throw a punch, their arguments don't hold water. They're just shitty wannabe fighters until they can demonstrate some proficiency in the fundamentals of fighting.
  9. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/06/2013 2:44pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    I know an accomplished, advanced BJJ practitioner who is also still a card carrying ninjer. He was a ninjer first and still swears by it. I don't know if he still truly thinks it's A-okay or if he just pretends it's awesome because he gets paid to teach it. Either way, he's a knucklehead in my book.
    In the first instance, he'd definitely fall into the knucklehead category.

    If the second possibility is the case, he's essentially getting money for nothing.

    Unethical? Sure.

    Knucklehead (meaning stupid)?

    Nope. Just someone who knows his P.T. Barnum.
  10. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/07/2013 1:37pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RandomTriangle View Post
    Well that's not really fair because the people who enjoy the ground work the most often end up wanting to cross train. I personally started in KM before I trained BJJ. I enjoyed the grappling/ground work we did. The instructor was a 2nd brown in Judo, kickboxer, and into heavy contact sparring before teaching Krav Maga. When the school I was training at hired a BJJ instructor I jumped at the chance and never looked back. I also never stopped training Krav Maga. My Krav Maga instructor encouraged everyone to cross train.

    Now I am a Krav Maga instructor. And in all fairness, you are right, my Krav Maga students that I consider blue belt level do SOME BJJ. But that's because I encourage it.

    Do you feel that me encouraging students to cross train detracts from Krav Maga's effectiveness?
    I'm not sure Krav Maga is effective at all. The key issue here, with a nod to Devil, is the set piece self defense type "moves" that seem to be the hallmark of Krav Maga. How are they trained effectively? Not cross training, which is a good thing in general.

    If the grappling was good enough in Krav Maga, why cross train? If there was enough "alive" training in Krav Maga, why cross train?

    My impression was that you implied that your Krav students, absent cross training, were up to blue belt level in BJJ. With cross training, and legit ranking as blue belts in BJJ, not a problem.

    I'm a 3rd degree black belt in Judo. I've rolled with BJJ blues that were damned tough to handle...and others that were not so much. There is a fairly wide range of skill and athleticism...
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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