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  1. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    9/14/2013 3:11pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Pressure testing fighting skills via sparring is reasonable. Insisting that nothing else works is dogmatic because it wilfully dismisses the possibility of compromise.

    I've already refuted that position using Devil's own example of the Dog Brothers, by pointing out that they, too, compromise via various rules and restrictions to simulate techniques that can't be safely pulled off in sparring.
    I don't know that Devil has taken the position that "Insisting that nothing else works is dogmatic because it willfully dismisses the possibility of compromise."

    In one of my posts, probably the rambling one, I alluded to the fact that the pressure testing/training stuff can't be done all time, nobody can take that for very long. Different levels of intensity, speed, force, safety gear, etc., must be used depending on the situation (skill level, time in training, danger levels (weapons), etc. And that's just in relatively non deadly Judo. He'd be crazy to think that.

    So compromise in training is necessary...that's what I hear you saying. And I agree, however, everything needs in one way or the other to ultimately be "tested" and "trained" under as realistic conditions as possible, keeping safety in mind.

    From my experience in Judo, it's usually a while before people can do that effectively. The concept can be introduced early on, and lower levels of intensity can be used. I've made my judo students (teenage boys) fucking cry when applying the "testing" of their skills under stressful conditions (me going maybe half to 3/4 speed in randori, let alone putting on my "game face", posture and overall attitude for adult level competition). Now they are OK with it, but it took a LONG time, years...

    Anyway, I've been watching some Krav Videos in my spare time (lol), and a lot of it is beginner level looking stuff. I see some that has people definitly developing some sort of "fighting" mindset and posture, combined with pretty crappy "technique" both in execution and in many cases concept. Maybe later on more advanced students/practitioners ramp it up a bit...remains to be seen.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  2. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    9/14/2013 3:47pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You guys are talking at cross purposes. I don't see any real disagreement. Nobody trains full speed full contact all the time. But it is necessary to do that with all techniques at some point to be realistic as possible.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  3. gregaquaman is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/15/2013 12:00am

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     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    You guys are talking at cross purposes. I don't see any real disagreement. Nobody trains full speed full contact all the time. But it is necessary to do that with all techniques at some point to be realistic as possible.
    It is the move towards full speed compliant contact that is my issue. If you are good enough to go fast and hard then you are good enough for the other guy to be stopping you.


    Happens with security training a lot. Because we are allhardy hard men. When we train we rack on the locks.

    It is fucking stupid. Here have my floppy arm. I will let you have the position and then you grind it untill I scream. Proves how effective the lock is see?

    Fundimentally train position before submission. deadly nut kick is a submission.
    Whitsunday Martial Arts Airlie Beach North Queensland.
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  4. gregaquaman is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/15/2013 12:09am

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     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    EG. and these guys look kind of new.

    Exposed front leg drill but non comliant. You dont get to win all the time but you get a bit of a gift to work with.


    And if you are in this video jab cross single.

    Jab cross hook double.

    Was doing my head in.
    Whitsunday Martial Arts Airlie Beach North Queensland.
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  5. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/15/2013 2:49pm

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     Style: 血鷲

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    ...pressure testing/training stuff can't be done all time, nobody can take that for very long.
    Please do not mistake this for street-vs-sport, but if one is teaching someone to go X number of rounds, duration of resistance/resilience may well be a factor. However, violent encounters that occur outside of an athletic context tend to be of the brutal-nasty-and-short variety.

    I generally believe that athletic training conditions one more than well enough for such encounters--whether or not they are meant to--but there may be things, that can only be briefly pressure-tested, which address the fact that seconds are an eternity in a (for lack of better term) street fight.
  6. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/15/2013 2:57pm

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Here's a video of mostly compliant drills and some pad work (note lots of knee strikes):



    Here's are some semi-compliant training drills, in which the "attackers" are typically playing defined roles and don't always fight back; NB the use of knee strikes at controlled speed/impact:



    Here's a KM kneeing pad drill:



    Here's a video of some freestyle "scenario" training, one "defender" vs. two "attackers" (no knee strikes):



    Here's a video of a couple of KM guys doing some sparring (again, no knee strikes):



    They don't typically throw full-power knees when they spar but I don't see any reason to doubt that they could hit hard with a knee if they wanted to in a real fight.

    Now, if they only did compliant pre-arranged drills then we could all join hands and chant bullshit on their claims to teach realistic self defense, but that's not what I'm seeing in these videos. I'm seeing a continuum that includes

    * pre-arranged drills to teach basic techniques and to allow the rehearsal of those techniques, such as full-power knees, that have been deemed too dangerous to apply for real in sparring

    * developing through progressively more spontaneous and resistant, harder contact scenario drills and full-contact pad work

    * up to full contact sparring under various more or less realistic rule-sets, in which the most dangerous techniques are either dropped or performed with controlled speed and power for safety

    Hopefully, Devil will come back with some videos of the type of Krav training that he has in mind, unless he can use the videos above to illustrate his problem with KM as an entity.

    No need for me to come back with more videos. You've done a great job of highlighting the **** training I've been describing.

    Video 1 - A carefully edited montage of microsnippets chosen by the deadlies to show tiny little pieces of their crap training that they thought was worthy of the internet. I see a ton of knee strikes where they don't control the head, guys running back and forth and crashing clumsily into kicking pads, a compliant knife drill where the offender is punished for his indiscretions with the dreaded ball kick, some computer nerds screaming and practicing their war faces, ninja wristlock knife disarms, something that looks like a mosh pit, a chick wearing her thong outside her pants, and ridgehands to a compliant partner's nutsack.

    Video 2 - I see some guys throwing strikes that would make a karate yellow belt cry with laughter. I see guys delivering these punches of doom against a whole gaggle of partners, presumably to practice deathfucking approximately 6 guys at once like a Jeff Speakman movie. Without a doubt some of the shittiest striking I've ever seen. I guess teaching students to throw a proper punch would eat up class time that could be spent on more high percentage technique like foot stomps and some more nut grabs. The video also includes some bus stop fighting which is an interesting scenario - unfortunately, the scenario itself clearly takes precedence over the actual fighting technique.

    Video 3 - Oooooooohh!!! VICIOUS KRAV MAGA KNEES! I'm fucking terrified now. I'm sure this bitch's future rapists will stand there and let her repeatedly knee the **** out of them while she controls them by placing both her hands on one of their shoulders. Totally plausible.

    Video 4 - This was better than the first three videos but that ain't saying much. I see some guys sparring with technique that for the most part looks nothing like the deadly stuff they've been practicing since their first day in class. They have subpar grappling and subpar striking, but hey - who's keeping score? Congratulations - these guys take first place in your quest to root out the good stuff. This is the Krav you've been speaking of, I guess. There is none higher!

    Video 5 - some light MMA style sparring. Looks nothing like any of the techniques taught in Krav Maga. Thanks for reinforcing my position that the better **** looks, the less it looks like Krav.

    Sorry - you've failed at doing anything other than helping expose Krav Maga for the giant steaming shitheap that it is. If you think this is good training, you suck at evaluating good training, plain and simple.
    Last edited by Devil; 9/15/2013 3:04pm at .
  7. ConcreteShoeMan is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/15/2013 4:14pm


     Style: BJJ, Krav Maga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sure. Why not throw myself into this.

    At my academy the level Krav 1 students do not spar and it looks like some of the videos on this thread: compliant padwork with lots of cardio, and those situational drills like bear hug escapes.

    Above level 1 one can spar and is encouraged to do so. The sparring can get pretty heavy for the guys who have been doing it a while. I've had my bell rung on many occasions and had many bruises and black eyes. The sparring looks MMA-ish... by that I mean same techniques but fewer rules. A guy who used to do MMA sparred with us recently and was surprised by a headbutt.

    My academy also does BJJ, Muay Thai and Kali. Cross training is encouraged.

    My impression of well taught Krav is that its a good introduction to fighting for the nonathletic person off the street who has never done a martial art before.

    For me it was a gateway drug to my Brazilian Jiu Jitsu obsession. I don't take Krav classes any more but I do continue to spar once or twice a week.
  8. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/15/2013 5:24pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    No need for me to come back with more videos. You've done a great job of highlighting the **** training I've been describing.

    Video 1 - A carefully edited montage of microsnippets chosen by the deadlies to show tiny little pieces of their crap training that they thought was worthy of the internet. I see a ton of knee strikes where they don't control the head, guys running back and forth and crashing clumsily into kicking pads, a compliant knife drill where the offender is punished for his indiscretions with the dreaded ball kick, some computer nerds screaming and practicing their war faces, ninja wristlock knife disarms, something that looks like a mosh pit, a chick wearing her thong outside her pants, and ridgehands to a compliant partner's nutsack.

    Video 2 - I see some guys throwing strikes that would make a karate yellow belt cry with laughter. I see guys delivering these punches of doom against a whole gaggle of partners, presumably to practice deathfucking approximately 6 guys at once like a Jeff Speakman movie. Without a doubt some of the shittiest striking I've ever seen. I guess teaching students to throw a proper punch would eat up class time that could be spent on more high percentage technique like foot stomps and some more nut grabs. The video also includes some bus stop fighting which is an interesting scenario - unfortunately, the scenario itself clearly takes precedence over the actual fighting technique.

    Video 3 - Oooooooohh!!! VICIOUS KRAV MAGA KNEES! I'm fucking terrified now. I'm sure this bitch's future rapists will stand there and let her repeatedly knee the **** out of them while she controls them by placing both her hands on one of their shoulders. Totally plausible.

    Video 4 - This was better than the first three videos but that ain't saying much. I see some guys sparring with technique that for the most part looks nothing like the deadly stuff they've been practicing since their first day in class. They have subpar grappling and subpar striking, but hey - who's keeping score? Congratulations - these guys take first place in your quest to root out the good stuff. This is the Krav you've been speaking of, I guess. There is none higher!

    Video 5 - some light MMA style sparring. Looks nothing like any of the techniques taught in Krav Maga. Thanks for reinforcing my position that the better **** looks, the less it looks like Krav.

    Sorry - you've failed at doing anything other than helping expose Krav Maga for the giant steaming shitheap that it is. If you think this is good training, you suck at evaluating good training, plain and simple.
    They don't typically throw full-power knees when they spar but I don't see any reason to doubt that they could hit hard with a knee if they wanted to in a real fight.

    Now, if they only did compliant pre-arranged drills then we could all join hands and chant bullshit on their claims to teach realistic self defense, but that's not what I'm seeing in these videos. I'm seeing a continuum that includes

    * pre-arranged drills to teach basic techniques and to allow the rehearsal of those techniques, such as full-power knees, that have been deemed too dangerous to apply for real in sparring

    * developing through progressively more spontaneous and resistant, harder contact scenario drills and full-contact pad work

    * up to full contact sparring under various more or less realistic rule-sets, in which the most dangerous techniques are either dropped or performed with controlled speed and power for safety
    What part of this are you struggling with?
  9. Devil is online now
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    9/15/2013 6:08pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    What part of this are you struggling with?
    The part where you were supposed to provide evidence that something other than shitty Krav Maga exists on planet Earth.
  10. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/15/2013 6:50pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    The part where you were supposed to provide evidence that something other than shitty Krav Maga exists on planet Earth.
    No - specifically, which part of this are you struggling with?

    They don't typically throw full-power knees when they spar but I don't see any reason to doubt that they could hit hard with a knee if they wanted to in a real fight.

    Now, if they only did compliant pre-arranged drills then we could all join hands and chant bullshit on their claims to teach realistic self defense, but that's not what I'm seeing in these videos. I'm seeing a continuum that includes

    * pre-arranged drills to teach basic techniques and to allow the rehearsal of those techniques, such as full-power knees, that have been deemed too dangerous to apply for real in sparring

    * developing through progressively more spontaneous and resistant, harder contact scenario drills and full-contact pad work

    * up to full contact sparring under various more or less realistic rule-sets, in which the most dangerous techniques are either dropped or performed with controlled speed and power for safety.
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