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  1. slamdunc is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2013 10:27pm

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     Style: TKD, CMA & American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    Sounds like Ashida Kim talk to me.
    I will re-phrase that statement. I was at Ft. Benning, GA in a MACP program. One of the senior instructors, three other students and I discussed Krav and Systema. From that, I gathered that Systema is bullshit and most Krav is bullshit. The instructor mentioned a Krav group that has, what is in his opinion, the r3al RBSD.

    If I ever sound or act like Ashida Kim or Dux, pm me a punch in the face.

  2. Devil is online now
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2013 10:39pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by slamdunc View Post
    I will re-phrase that statement. I was at Ft. Benning, GA in a MACP program. One of the senior instructors, three other students and I discussed Krav and Systema. From that, I gathered that Systema is bullshit and most Krav is bullshit. The instructor mentioned a Krav group that has, what is in his opinion, the r3al RBSD.

    If I ever sound or act like Ashida Kim or Dux, pm me a punch in the face.


    My sensei said so?

    **** man, some of these arguments make me feel like I'm in a time warp. What fucking year is it? Damn.

    I give no credence to military martial arts training at all. It amazes me how people constantly bring up the military on the subject of martial arts as if they are some authority. They're not. I suspect you know that already and are just throwing out some anecdotal evidence.

    But riddle me this, Batman. If the ****'s that super duper secret and only practiced by a handful of secret squirrels in a classified location when the moon is full, what fucking good is it to anyone else???????

    Why is it so goddamn hard to find a video of it? I've seen videos I'm pretty sure are alien spacecraft. But still no good Krav.
    Last edited by Devil; 9/13/2013 10:42pm at .
  3. slamdunc is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2013 11:00pm

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     Style: TKD, CMA & American Kenpo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    I suspect you know that already and are just throwing out some anecdotal evidence.
    Guilty as charged; unless I cite a source, all of my **** is anecdotal (usually personal experience vs personal opinion).
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    Why is it so goddamn hard to find a video of it? I've seen videos I'm pretty sure are alien spacecraft. But still no good Krav.
    That was the purpose of my post. Although I heard from what IMHO was a good source, that it exists, I have never seen it. I would like to see the video as well.

    It took bloody noses, cracked ribs, a fractured orbital and metatarsals for me to believe there was good Kenpo.

  4. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2013 11:15pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    Believing that something has to be trained against realistic resistance to be useful in real combat isn't a "dogma". It's a conclusion based on evidence. You are free to try and refute that conclusion with your own evidence, but don't call it a dogma. When you call it a dogma, you basically become the same as the creationists who claim that evolution is a position of faith.
    Pressure testing fighting skills via sparring is reasonable. Insisting that nothing else works is dogmatic because it wilfully dismisses the possibility of compromise.

    I've already refuted that position using Devil's own example of the Dog Brothers, by pointing out that they, too, compromise via various rules and restrictions to simulate techniques that can't be safely pulled off in sparring.
  5. Devil is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2013 11:30pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Pressure testing fighting skills via sparring is reasonable. Insisting that nothing else works is dogmatic because it wilfully dismisses the possibility of compromise.

    I've already refuted that position using Devil's own example of the Dog Brothers, by pointing out that they, too, compromise via various rules and restrictions to simulate techniques that can't be safely pulled off in sparring.
    You either didn't read my response to Permalost's question about the Dog Brothers or you're purposely ignoring it. You can't use my Dog Brothers example to refute a fucking thing because my only reason for bringing them up at all was to highlight the fact that I've seen them train teh d34dly without resorting to what amounts to a two person kata. I made no assertions about the quality of their training as a whole.

    There is no compromise to be made. You're either training with aliveness or you're not. And that applies to each and every technique. If you train 50% of your technique in an alive manner that doesn't validate the other 50% where you train with a dead fish uke. The only compromise to be made is with respect to how much time you're willing to waste on the shitty part to get to the good part.
  6. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2013 11:32pm


     Style: aikido

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Pressure testing fighting skills via sparring is reasonable. Insisting that nothing else works is dogmatic because it wilfully dismisses the possibility of compromise.
    That doesn't make it dogmatic. Let's go back to my evolution analogy: are evolutionary biologists dogmatic because they refuse to compromise with creationists? No, they're just choosing to go on believing what they have observed until someone shows them something better.

    I've already refuted that position using Devil's own example of the Dog Brothers, by pointing out that they, too, compromise via various rules and restrictions to simulate techniques that can't be safely pulled off in sparring.
    That only refutes his position if he holds up the Dog Brothers as a model of good training. As far as I can tell, he hasn't done that, only picked out one specific practice of theirs as an example of what he's saying.

    What you need to be doing is showing how static training of techniques that will never be trained in an alive manner can be useful for self-defense. That will shut Devil (and me) up.
  7. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/14/2013 12:17am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    You either didn't read my response to Permalost's question about the Dog Brothers or you're purposely ignoring it. You can't use my Dog Brothers example to refute a fucking thing because my only reason for bringing them up at all was to highlight the fact that I've seen them train teh d34dly without resorting to what amounts to a two person kata. I made no assertions about the quality of their training as a whole.

    There is no compromise to be made. You're either training with aliveness or you're not. And that applies to each and every technique. If you train 50% of your technique in an alive manner that doesn't validate the other 50% where you train with a dead fish uke. The only compromise to be made is with respect to how much time you're willing to waste on the shitty part to get to the good part.
    You betcha. Black is black and white is white and that is all.
  8. OwlMatt is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/14/2013 12:48am


     Style: aikido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    You betcha. Black is black and white is white and that is all.
    I'm going to make one more attempt at spelling this out before I go to bed.

    If I don't think X works, you can't get pissed off at me for not accepting a compromise between X and Y. There's still a bunch of X in there, and I still don't think X works. If you're going to disagree with me, show how I am wrong about X. Show how X does work so that I have a reason to want to compromise with it.
  9. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/14/2013 4:13am

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    -1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OwlMatt View Post
    I'm going to make one more attempt at spelling this out before I go to bed.

    If I don't think X works, you can't get pissed off at me for not accepting a compromise between X and Y. There's still a bunch of X in there, and I still don't think X works. If you're going to disagree with me, show how I am wrong about X. Show how X does work so that I have a reason to want to compromise with it.
    Here's a video of mostly compliant drills and some pad work (note lots of knee strikes):



    Here's are some semi-compliant training drills, in which the "attackers" are typically playing defined roles and don't always fight back; NB the use of knee strikes at controlled speed/impact:



    Here's a KM kneeing pad drill:



    Here's a video of some freestyle "scenario" training, one "defender" vs. two "attackers" (no knee strikes):



    Here's a video of a couple of KM guys doing some sparring (again, no knee strikes):



    They don't typically throw full-power knees when they spar but I don't see any reason to doubt that they could hit hard with a knee if they wanted to in a real fight.

    Now, if they only did compliant pre-arranged drills then we could all join hands and chant bullshit on their claims to teach realistic self defense, but that's not what I'm seeing in these videos. I'm seeing a continuum that includes

    * pre-arranged drills to teach basic techniques and to allow the rehearsal of those techniques, such as full-power knees, that have been deemed too dangerous to apply for real in sparring

    * developing through progressively more spontaneous and resistant, harder contact scenario drills and full-contact pad work

    * up to full contact sparring under various more or less realistic rule-sets, in which the most dangerous techniques are either dropped or performed with controlled speed and power for safety

    Hopefully, Devil will come back with some videos of the type of Krav training that he has in mind, unless he can use the videos above to illustrate his problem with KM as an entity.
  10. ChenPengFi is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/14/2013 12:50pm

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've been taught to avoid reaping the knee like in that last video, and that was the best part in any of those.
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