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  1. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Exasperated.

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2009 5:56pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Experimenting with a method for taking/exposing the back

    I've been playing around with something lately with a few blues and have had limited success with a couple of purples and I wanted to bring it up to get any feedback. Many of the posters here also watch a lot more video than me so I'd also appreciate links to video from competition of instructionals.

    Here's the deal: I've been using my knees and driving into training partners to get them turned onto their stomachs completely flattened out. I originally thought I heard about doing this from a blackbelt but I think I actually misunderstood him and ended up with something different.

    More detail: From mount or side I'll get a big brother grip on an opponent's arm; big brother is where, e.g. from mount, I'll underhook my opponent's head with my left arm and grab their right arm and pull tight. It reminds me of something my big brother would do to me. With the big brother grip I'll pull my opponent to their side some, exposing their back. From that position there are a variety of ways to take the back which at the crudest level basically involve pulling your opponent onto you. From the grip side I mentioned what I've tried doing is hopping off mount to side control on my left. I then base out with my left leg and drive my knee into their lats just above their spine while also pulling the grip through. This turns them onto their stomach BUT with them completely flattened out. Since you're driving them down with the knee when they flatten out you also end up pulled over them with position (but no hooks). The main issue has been that they're so flat getting hooks is hard. However, they're usually so prone that you can get a choke without the hooks.

    Has anyone seen something like this or seen competition footage of someone doing this that would perhaps flesh out technical details? I haven't done this on the more experienced browns or talked to my coach about it yet so I might be missing something obvious.



    edit: basically what I call taking the big brother grip:
    http://www.grapplearts.com/Images/Ar...the-back-4.jpg
  2. CoffeeFan is offline
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    Certified Personal Trainer and Drinker of Coffee

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2009 9:34pm

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     Style: SAMBO/BJJ/Judo and others

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We call it the "Whose your Daddy?"

    There is also a choke from there where you insert your forearm, like a modified Ezekiel.

    I almost get it at 04:34 of this old video:

    YouTube- Jonathan (CoffeeFan) Grappling

    If you want I'll make a video of stuff you can do from that position and some tricks to taking the back.
  3. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2009 9:51pm

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We also call it "Whose your Daddy" and there is actually a wrestling turnover called "Shucking the clam" which is done with that same arm position if they are face down and you need to turn them over. It works the same way to turn them onto their belly.
    First get the Big Brother grip, then bail to side control if you weren't there already in a way that keeps the arm tight. Next reach under your opponents nearside knee and grab the top of their far leg. Ideally their leg just above the knee will be resting on your elbow and your hand will be cupped around their other leg just above the knee.
    Now gather your legs under you and explode forward, at the same time driving with your shoulders and sort of scooping your arms down.
    You get an explosive flip out of most people and the are smashing face down and you have their near arm and near leg controlled.

    It's high percentage in wrestling and I've seen it used in judo to defeat people who flatten out belly down to stall.
    In judo and wrestling it can be done with a half nelson instead of the big brother to flip the opponent onto their back. That doesn't work so well for the reverse though.

    What CAN work if you can't get the big brother is from side control to reach under your opponents near arm and head and put your hand on their far shoulder, get as good a grip as you can and then do the leg weave and explode that way. It's not as reliable as the big brother grip and can lead to scrambles more often, but in Gi you can keep a grip the gi for control to reduce that.
    In Gi you can do a similar thing which can also be a Gi choke by feeding the nearside collar across to your hand under their head in side control and then pulling. If you have the leg weave when your opponent rolls away from you then you can take their back and have the single cross collar grip already which lets you move straight to a hell strangle setup or some other finishing choke.

    So yeah, good stuff. Fun move. Lot of options if you look for them.
  4. M-Tri is offline
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    Pseudo-Scrambler Extraordinaire

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2009 11:12pm

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     Style: Mixed Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I always though "GIFT-WRAP" was the proper terminology?

    Regardless I use the gift wrap relentlessly from side and mount for a number of different back takes and darce/arm-triangle entries. It's even great to sink a RNC as you take the back when you get your timing down.

    The greatest footage is here of Rickson Gracie using a position similar to the gift wrap (he just doesn't actually grab the wrist) in sparring to take the back and waste no time entering into the RNC. It's truely a brilliant technique if you haven't seen it yet, and Rickson does it so smooth and so fast you'll have to rewind and replay it a few times. check it here at 8:00:

    Rare Rickson Sparring Footage


    Once i have the gift wrap I usually try to sink in an arm-triangle, or switch hands for cross-wrist control and sink a darce. the arm-triangle usually prompts them to turn and give me there back, which I mainly take when they are on one side, by slinding my knee under their back as best I can with my other leg over there body, then rolling them over the leg tucked in and sinking the hooks as they come around. usually during this transition I can release the gift-wrap on a big tug and slip the RNC right in effortlessly. there's plenty of other options and combos though... but I'm afraid none of them are easy to explain through typing...
    FACT- Eddie Bravo invented the triangle choke when he used it to tap out helio gracie at an ac/dc concert.


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  5. DKJr is offline
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    Fasten your seat belts, and prepare for lift off

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2009 11:34pm

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     Style: Combat Cuddling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I use the big brother grip (I thought it was scorpion grip or some other crap.) to get them on their side and switch to a technical mount (foot over near their hip, other knee in their back.) Then I transition to the kimura grip crank on it to help turn them combined with driving my hips into them to be able to get under them, then basically pull myself under them. This gives me an over under grip with decent wrist position as well as the back.
    In gi I'll threaten the bow and arrow choke or any other gi choke from the technical mount position using the big brother grip to get the collar. No gi it's arm triangles and darces.
  6. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2009 1:37am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kintanton is describing something similar to what I'm talking about but I prefer the direction that this has taken in regards to subs off the big brother (no idea if there are other names for it, that's what I started calling it at my gym and others there have followed suit).

    Let's focus on that, the more the merrier since I really enjoy getting subs off the big brother.
  7. Mr.Miyagi is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2009 2:41am


     Style: BJJ/Zumba

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For us, this is one of my heart-felt go-to moves, it's called an 'arm-wrap'. Very, very handy (rocks in MMA, too). Sweet tranisitions into head-arms/d'arces/back-control/armbars/[my favourite] cross-collar half-nelson!/etc.

    You can move, not only to take their back (rolling them over, which fucking hurts if someone big is doing it), but to sit them up with the 'arm-wrap': after you yank them up (they're sitting facing away from you, legs out in front of themselves) keep your chest against the upper middle of their shoulders, to keep weight pushed forward on them. From where you can go to normal hooks and go to RNC, or do a sneaky 'shake' of them, and they might post with their free arm allowing you to scoop it with your leg and hook it in behind their back (roll to the side of the trapped arm, more weight on this = harder to get out). Thus, you have both arms trapped, controlled, and can feast on their lifeforce.

    Hooking the arm with your leg is the same mechanic as the crucifix transition (no-gi or modified gi: goal to get their back instead of collar chokes/neck cranks) where you move to take their back keeping their arm trapped, and have to lift their head and scoot your hips under them. One hook has arm, other hook inside and do what pleases you!

    I also like to just lock this in and then full knee ride. Oh gods how I like to do this.

    This position (armwrap) is a fantasic launching point for attacks and transitions. I love it.
    Daniel: I don't know if I know enough karate.

    Miyagi: Feeling correct.

    Daniel: You sure know how to make a guy feel confident.

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  8. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2009 9:04am

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you want subs off of this there is a 1000% gay wristlock that is awesome to do. You get the big brother grip, then adjust their hand so that the back of the hand is pressed flat on the mat, then pull the back of their head up at the same time you put your weight down on their elbow.
    Brutal wristlock.
  9. chingythingy is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2009 6:45pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm with M-Tri on this move - gift wrap. The most common sub I go for from there is the arm triangle - reach the other arm through and hop off to side pinning his arm with your head.
  10. Mr.Miyagi is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2009 6:53pm


     Style: BJJ/Zumba

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon View Post
    If you want subs off of this there is a 1000% gay wristlock that is awesome to do. You get the big brother grip, then adjust their hand so that the back of the hand is pressed flat on the mat, then pull the back of their head up at the same time you put your weight down on their elbow.
    Brutal wristlock.
    Oh yeah! I completely forgot about that wristlock (it's not part of my game, but I've had it done to me a number of times)!

    It is pretty brutal. The heavier you are, the more brutal it is. Depending how their hand is sitting when I get the grip I 'paint' their hand back and forward along the mat, a bit, until Iget it to flop the right way (palm up, towards their elbow). And then just dump my weight behind that arm. Nothing you can do once that happens but tap :|.

    I haven't used 'pulling their head up at the same time', though. Is this just for extra control?

    Unrelated to wristlock, but sweet armwrap > triangle from mount setup:
    YouTube- arm wrap triangle view 2
    Last edited by Mr.Miyagi; 12/23/2009 7:02pm at .
    Daniel: I don't know if I know enough karate.

    Miyagi: Feeling correct.

    Daniel: You sure know how to make a guy feel confident.

    Miyagi: You trust the quality of what you know, not quantity.

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