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  1. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/20/2009 6:53pm

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    French cane fencing (1900)

    YouTube- 1900 Baton Fencing

    Charles Charlemont, one of the most prominent French savate and canne instructors at the turn of the 20th century, demonstrating some basic strikes and parries with the canne in this film clip, originally shot in the year 1900.
  2. AlphaFoxtrot51 is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/20/2009 7:29pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    YouTube- 1900 Baton Fencing

    Charles Charlemont, one of the most prominent French savate and canne instructors at the turn of the 20th century, demonstrating some basic strikes and parries with the canne in this film clip, originally shot in the year 1900.
    It's a basic sabre fencing drill, only it includes attacks/parries below the waist.
    :911flag: If you are lost, I will find you. If you are wounded, I will carry you. If you are pinned, I will cover you. If you are killed, I will recover and remember you. If you trespass against me, my countrymen, or my loved ones...I will kill you.

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  3. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/20/2009 10:53pm

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    Pretty much. That was the criticism of self defense-oriented cane teachers around this time; that others were basically just teaching sabre fencing with a stick.
  4. kwan_dao is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2009 4:39am


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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Pretty much. That was the criticism of self defense-oriented cane teachers around this time; that others were basically just teaching sabre fencing with a stick.
    Well, since the founding of the dog-brothers IMHO it is a proven fact that the critics you mentioned were dead right. The practical efficiency of these fencing moves in a self-defense situation is... uhm... lets say questionable.

    Very interesting clip nevertheless, I allways delight in watching historical documents like that. Thanks a lot!
  5. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2009 8:58am


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    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    Well, since the founding of the dog-brothers IMHO it is a proven fact that the critics you mentioned were dead right.
    They have? I wasn't aware that the DBs had done any research at all in traditional western fencing or la Canne.

    The practical efficiency of these fencing moves in a self-defense situation is... uhm... lets say questionable.
    How so?

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  6. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/21/2009 10:19am

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    Well, since the founding of the dog-brothers IMHO it is a proven fact that the critics you mentioned were dead right. The practical efficiency of these fencing moves in a self-defense situation is... uhm... lets say questionable.
    So why have the Dog-brothers incorporated than key elements of La Canne into their Kali?
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  7. AlphaFoxtrot51 is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/21/2009 12:56pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    The practical efficiency of these fencing moves in a self-defense situation is... uhm... lets say questionable.
    Not true at all. In all honesty, fencing taught me a lot about fighting. How to use distance, the importance of timing, and how to force your opponent to fight at your tempo. It also teaches you to be smart about your engagements.

    If you look at fencing (and most martials arts) at their face value, they appear useless and out-dated. But the concepts that were originally taught there, are incorporated into other curricula.
    :911flag: If you are lost, I will find you. If you are wounded, I will carry you. If you are pinned, I will cover you. If you are killed, I will recover and remember you. If you trespass against me, my countrymen, or my loved ones...I will kill you.

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  8. kwan_dao is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2009 1:05pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Zendokan View Post
    So why have the Dog-brothers incorporated than key elements of La Canne into their Kali?
    I am not very good in multiple quoting, so I will take the freedom of answering two posts while quoting only one.

    Zendokan:

    I was not criticising La Canne in general, but schools of La Canne using flowery fencing techniques as found in sabre fencing. Afaik those schools have more or less died out over time and La Canne today is quite sturdy and pretty usefull in self-defense. Which would also explain why it was integrated into the DB's curriculum.

    lklawson:

    DB meetings are quite open. The process was much the same as with the early UFC. In the beginning you had lots of different styles attending. Lots of people thinking what they did would work. In the beginning there were Ninjas trying to compete in MMA. Now there are no Ninjas anymore.

    Historical research has a great worth in its own. But it can hardly ever deliver factual proof of efficiency for a martial art (even if said martial art was practised by a successfull group/nation, there could be thousands of other factors which might have influenced their success, marginalising the effect of the martial art or at least making it impossible to judge its actual influence).

    Much different from simply inviting every stickfigher around to an open match and recognizing that all the flowery fencers get bloody noses and no wins.

    I for one have yet to see anyone successfully fighting in a full contact tournament like the DB meetings with sabre (or sabre like) techniques. Thus my sceptic take on the matters. I would be glad to see my stance on this matters corrected though.
  9. kwan_dao is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2009 1:12pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by AlphaFoxtrot51 View Post
    Not true at all. In all honesty, fencing taught me a lot about fighting. How to use distance, the importance of timing, and how to force your opponent to fight at your tempo. It also teaches you to be smart about your engagements.

    If you look at fencing (and most martials arts) at their face value, they appear useless and out-dated. But the concepts that were originally taught there, are incorporated into other curricula.
    We are talking of different things here. I am readily willing to acknowledge that fencing training can give you good foundational skills. Sharp eyes, timing, a feeling for distance, speed and a certain "lightness" in your movements, etc. Thats out of discussion.

    I was talking about the acutal techniques as shown in the film clip posted. Posturing like that in a "NHB" stickfighting situation (completely with one hand on your back and whatnot) will get you into trouble. Please keep in mind that there were schools teaching you to actually fight in that exact way in a self-defense situation.
  10. AlphaFoxtrot51 is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/21/2009 1:44pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    I was talking about the acutal techniques as shown in the film clip posted. Posturing like that in a "NHB" stickfighting situation (completely with one hand on your back and whatnot) will get you into trouble. Please keep in mind that there were schools teaching you to actually fight in that exact way in a self-defense situation.
    I didn't realize that's where you had taken the discussion. It was unclear and I apologize. That being said...

    Nobody stands like that in fencing, it's a good base...but everyone modifies it to their own liking. Most fencing schools teach olympic/sport fencing...it's rare that you'll find combat fencing anymore.

    Also, I used a fencing stance against Mojo when we sparred (stick fighting). The concepts still worked. The only thing I disagree with in that video is those large sweeping motions which leave you open to multiple lines of attack.
    :911flag: If you are lost, I will find you. If you are wounded, I will carry you. If you are pinned, I will cover you. If you are killed, I will recover and remember you. If you trespass against me, my countrymen, or my loved ones...I will kill you.

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