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  1. dougguod is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2009 5:36am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post

    A civil servant with absolutely no known or recorded martial experience, who started to collect old fencing treatises and weapons. He hired actors to pose for him in the ways he had learned from his books, as well as self developed techniques. Then had the quite famous painter Jörg Breur paint them for his own publications.

    My god, I think you've pinpointed the origin of the LARP! Not exactly an Indiana Jones-level discovery, but oddly impressive in a pathetic sort of way. I salute you,sir!

    As for Phil Elmore, yeah, he's a one of many worthy inheiritors of this newly revealed LARP lineage.
  2. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2009 8:53am


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze View Post
    You're saying the guy was basically Phil Elmore?
    Whatever his faults may be, I don't think that LARPing is among them.

    Mostly, I think, his biggest issues are being abrasive, condescending, and a bit self-important. Most of that can be forgiven given his status as a "personality" (well, as much as one forgives such behavior from any other "personality").

    He seems to get kinda an unfair shake 'round here, though I'll stipulate that it's pretty much his own fault for being belligerent and imperious. That being said, I think that most of the criticism he receives here at B.S. is not properly directed.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  3. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2009 9:22am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I never accused him of LARPing, the post I referred to never mentioned it either.

    Like Paulus Hector Mair, Elmore professes expertise in combatives when he has no real experience in them. They've both wrote books about the subject, and they've both developed their own "moves", born only from theoretical musings and flights of fancy. It's an apt comparison.

    Also, Elmore is a fucking paranoid nutcase and grade A psuedo-intellectual douchebag, he deserves all the stick he gets.
  4. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2009 10:08am


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze View Post
    I never accused him of LARPing, the post I referred to never mentioned it either.
    My mistake.

    Like Paulus Hector Mair, Elmore professes expertise in combatives when he has no real experience in them. They've both wrote books about the subject, and they've both developed their own "moves", born only from theoretical musings and flights of fancy. It's an apt comparison.
    Though he does seem to profess some expertise, and has written "books," I don't recall where he has "developed his own moves."

    Also, Elmore is a fucking paranoid nutcase and grade A psuedo-intellectual douchebag, he deserves all the stick he gets.
    I agree that he has a paranoid bent. I regularly had disagreements with him over whether or not, and if so, how much so, "homeless people" were "dangerous threats." And, yes, when I say he tends to be abrasive and imperious, I am stating it politely. One of the biggest reasons that I left his forum is because I didn't agree that his book, "Street Sword," was the greatest introductory sword book ever (I suggested, instead, an alternative that I thought was better). He told me to F*** off, so I did. That being said, any "stick" that he gets should be for things he's actually guilty of instead of the general, non-specific, bashing that he regularly gets.

    So, what, exactly, are these "moves" that he has developed?

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  5. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2009 11:14am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    Though he does seem to profess some expertise, and has written "books," I don't recall where he has "developed his own moves."
    He claims to have developed his own system, short sighted empty headed, or something to that effect (okay okay, it's short hand empty hand). That's what one of his books is about.

    http://www.shorthandemptyhand.com/
  6. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2009 1:57pm


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze View Post
    He claims to have developed his own system, short sighted empty headed, or something to that effect (okay okay, it's short hand empty hand). That's what one of his books is about.

    http://www.shorthandemptyhand.com/
    I'm familiar with it (more or less).

    Calling it a "system" is overly generous. It's more like some basics that seem to apply most of the time to most people.

    The concept being sorta similar to WWII era boot camp 1 day "unarmed combat" instruction. Give most people a kinda general framework and hope for the best.

    I kinda like the general idea (over all): Work with the concept of "universal principles." As always, the catch in in the execution.

    This is the case here. There's nothing really about "SHEH" that makes it stand out and, in many ways, is sorta behind the curve. Let's be honest. It was (apparently) originally intended as a booklet of self-defense concepts/simple-techs for the complete newbie who wanted something quick and dirty.

    It's the "book version" of a one day self defense course, with all of the attendant shortcomings of such an endeavor.

    That said, there's nothing really bad about it, WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK of a one day self defense course (which has plenty to take issue with, I agree).

    The "Phil Elmore System" stuff seems to be nothing more than exaggeration and hype. Though, his personal marketing of it, I think, way over-sells the material, I don't recall him claiming that he's invented it or that it's an end-all be-all kick butt, sure to make you "teh d3ad1y" or anything.

    Though I admit it's been a while since I looked at his web page. Maybe he's changed his "resell" since then. I'll take a glance at it again.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  7. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2009 2:29pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You're being overly generous with him and trying to argue me into a corner. No matter how limited it is or is supposed to be, in his own words SHEH is intended as a combative system, it's right there on the fucking website.

    The man is not qualified to teach this ****, he has no real life experience at conflict management or fighting. His training amounts to a small amount of wing chun (and he lacked the self discipline to even do that for long) and fantasising about knives. I doubt the guy has ever even seen a real fight.

    I agree a book/course like it has its place, that's why there are already a number on the market by people far more qualified. Elmore is a fantasist, one that could well get other people seriously hurt.
    Last edited by Lu Tze; 12/21/2009 2:38pm at .
  8. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2009 3:08pm


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze View Post
    You're being overly generous with him
    Maybe. Seems unlikely though, due to his less than friendly request for my departure.

    and trying to argue me into a corner.
    Not at all. All I'm arguing is to criticize people based on their actual merits (or lack thereof), not on the basis of exaggerations or misrepresentations. In this case Mr. Elmore did NOT claim he "developed his own moves." While I agree that "developing his own SYSTEM" is little better, the two are not the same. And, again, to call it a "system" to be developed is overly generous and stretching the marketing to the limit (something which he seems fond of doing). It's general concepts and universal principles. Calling it a "combat system" is a little like a guy claiming a 24" penis. Where's the beef? :P

    No matter how limited it is or is supposed to be, in his own words SHEH is intended as a combative system, it's right there on the fucking website.
    Yeah. That's new since the last time I looked.

    I agree a book/course like it has its place, that's why there are already a number on the market by people far more qualified. Elmore is a fantasist, one that could well get other people seriously hurt.
    [/quote]To be honest, I don't really like "basic self defense for newbies" books. I dislike "one day self defense courses" only slightly less since, in that case, you at least get "live" instruction.

    My biggest complaint with most of Mr. Elmore's work is that it is TOO basic. And, further, that in order to make it not "too basic," it would have to either dramatically narrow the focus and/or dramatically increase the volume of the book.

    I'm not opposed to learning from books, but I think one needs a solid "base" from which to work and extrapolate. That material then needs to be practiced, put on the mat, and stress-tested.

    These are things that you just can't do as a newbie with no base trying to learn from a book or by attending a one day SD seminar.

    For example, to clarify what I mean, I've been asked several times to teach a women's SD course, usually by mothers interested in keeping their daughters safe. After I explain to them that my philosophy of SD includes weapons (knives, guns, etc.) and that "tricks" of self defense are often not what they're cracked up to be: such as "kick him in the balls"... what? like men DON'T KNOW that their testicles are sensitive and HAVEN'T been learning to protect the groin since BIRTH?!?! ... when I explain to them that, yes, men really ARE bigger and stronger and that strength and weight really DO matter -- And then I start talking about reoccurring practice and keeping the skills "fresh"... well, these mothers usually start reconsidering.

    Anyway, before I get too far on that tangent, I'll let this go.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  9. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    12/21/2009 3:42pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    In this case Mr. Elmore did NOT claim he "developed his own moves." While I agree that "developing his own SYSTEM" is little better, the two are not the same.
    Oh, **** off.
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