225138 Bullies, 3962 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 1 to 10 of 19
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. wiltz999 is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    16

    Posted On:
    12/18/2009 11:33am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    the Greeks and Romans

    do all european martial arts come from the greeks and romans? i heard that thats what Paulus Hector Mair believed.
  2. lklawson is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Dayton, OH
    Posts
    964

    Posted On:
    12/18/2009 12:38pm


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wiltz999 View Post
    do all european martial arts come from the greeks and romans?
    Yes. Or no. Depending on how you track and define European martial arts. Culturally, lots and lots track back to the Greeks and Romans, but there's also a lot of influence from Germanics, Celtics, Arabian, Moro, and a nearly untold numbers of other sources.

    And that's without stipulating that the Romans pretty much hoovered up whatever technology, skills, and strategy they could from every where they went. There's convincing evidence, for instance, that both the Spatha (the "Roman Longsword") and "chain" maille, Lorica Hamata, used by the Romans was stolen directly from the Celts and then improved (by rivitting the links closed).

    i heard that thats what Paulus Hector Mair believed.
    Didn't he also believe evil humours caused illness? ;)

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  3. mytank4 is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Santa Cruz,Ca
    Posts
    135

    Posted On:
    12/18/2009 4:47pm


     Style: WrestlingMmaMuayThaiTkd

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    greek statues show ancient pankration fighters doing similar techniques to martial arts around the world.
  4. SBG-ape is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    499

    Posted On:
    12/18/2009 5:53pm


     Style: Jiu-jitsu & HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mytank4 View Post
    greek statues show ancient pankration fighters doing similar techniques to martial arts around the world.
    Which is evidence of the fact that the human body can only move so many ways.
  5. wiltz999 is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    16

    Posted On:
    12/18/2009 6:46pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    did boxing or pankration exist in the middle ages?
  6. DdlR is offline
    DdlR's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    4,772

    Posted On:
    12/18/2009 9:49pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wiltz999 View Post
    did boxing or pankration exist in the middle ages?
    Not as sports, as far as I know. There was some pretty brutal unarmed combat taught as part of generic martial arts training in, say, Renaissance-era Italy, but there's no real evidence suggesting that it was a linear survival of ancient Graeco-Roman styles.

    Boxing, or at least fist-fighting, was practiced under more-or-less recreational/sporting conditions in Italy during the Renaissance, but again, there's no evidence I know of directly connecting that practice to the pugilism of the ancient Games. It may have been some sort of survival, or the practice may have died out for centuries and then been revived.
  7. willaume is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    windsor UK
    Posts
    344

    Posted On:
    12/19/2009 7:07am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mytank4 View Post
    greek statues show ancient pankration fighters doing similar techniques to martial arts around the world.
    Or martial arts around the world show similar techniques to Pankration.

    As Ddlr and lklawson have posted we do not really know and there is not tangible proof or even indication that there is a link between pugilism and pankration and later European martial tradition. That being said absence of proof is not proof of abscense.

    There are massive obstacles in the way of getting to a resolution on that question.

    You see, regardless where we come from, our elbow is not going to bend pass the olecrane.
    You can call it dim mak or mortschloss, the idea is strike (hard) high value target.
    Lots of sword talin are common to japanse and European tradition.
    Talk to 2 arnis people one will tell you it comes from Spanish rapier and dagger the other will tell you that it is native art for native weapon.
    (Personally I can not see much of the Spanish rapier in all arnis cali I have seen but rapier is not my favoured weapon)

    Zu lauffen ringen do look like aikido.
    No we can not believe that Ueshiba found a copy of the ringeck packed with a Japanese-MHD dictionary and MHD grammar.

    What I am trying to get at is given the common nature of the problem martial arts is trying to solve, the various military cultures that cropped around globe and the fact that the further back in time that culture is the more nebulous is our knowledge.
    It is almost impossible to determine if techniques, strategy or tactics are native imported or frog DNA-ed

    phil

    ps
    i totally agree with Ddlr and lklawson for their answer. i could not have put it better myself
  8. kwan_dao is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    257

    Posted On:
    12/19/2009 8:19am


     Style: sambo, stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by willaume View Post
    Or martial arts around the world show similar techniques to Pankration.

    As Ddlr and lklawson have posted we do not really know and there is not tangible proof or even indication that there is a link between pugilism and pankration and later European martial tradition. That being said absence of proof is not proof of abscense.

    There are massive obstacles in the way of getting to a resolution on that question.

    You see, regardless where we come from, our elbow is not going to bend pass the olecrane.
    You can call it dim mak or mortschloss, the idea is strike (hard) high value target.
    Lots of sword talin are common to japanse and European tradition.
    Talk to 2 arnis people one will tell you it comes from Spanish rapier and dagger the other will tell you that it is native art for native weapon.
    (Personally I can not see much of the Spanish rapier in all arnis cali I have seen but rapier is not my favoured weapon)

    Zu lauffen ringen do look like aikido.
    No we can not believe that Ueshiba found a copy of the ringeck packed with a Japanese-MHD dictionary and MHD grammar.

    What I am trying to get at is given the common nature of the problem martial arts is trying to solve, the various military cultures that cropped around globe and the fact that the further back in time that culture is the more nebulous is our knowledge.
    It is almost impossible to determine if techniques, strategy or tactics are native imported or frog DNA-ed

    phil

    ps
    i totally agree with Ddlr and lklawson for their answer. i could not have put it better myself
    What he said +1

    As the name came up I would like to add that one should be careful with Paulus Hector Mair as a source of information.

    The guy was most probably a nutcracker.

    A civil servant with absolutely no known or recorded martial experience, who started to collect old fencing treatises and weapons. He hired actors to pose for him in the ways he had learned from his books, as well as self developed techniques. Then had the quite famous painter Jörg Breur paint them for his own publications.

    Spent his whole family fortune on his book project. When he ran out of money, he started to steal from city funds of his home city Augsburg. His theft was found out and he was executed as a thief in 1569.

    Somehow this whole "knightly" book collecting and destroying his own families welfare for the cause sounds a lot like the story of a certain Mr. "de la Mancha". Maybe Cervantes had heard Mair's story before he wrote his book and incorporated it into his novel? The time-frame would certainly fit, seeing as Cervantes wrote his books about 1600.
  9. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    W. Yorks, UK
    Posts
    5,018

    Posted On:
    12/19/2009 8:42am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You're saying the guy was basically Phil Elmore?
  10. kwan_dao is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    257

    Posted On:
    12/19/2009 8:51am


     Style: sambo, stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze View Post
    You're saying the guy was basically Phil Elmore?
    Lol, maybe.

    He might have looked better then Phil though. Appearance meant a lot in the Renaissance and Mair was a quite famous party animal as well as good buddies with a bunch of really really highups.

    Probably had a lot more contact with real wimminz as well.
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.