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  1. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/26/2009 12:30pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ronin, Sirc is telling you to STFU because I made a post explaining how this situation did not surprise me based upon my operational experience and current situation, and you replied with something that you read from a book about Vietnam, and basically implied that I didn't get it. Also, you asked me to explain something that you have to know that I can't go into much detail about. I realize your intentions weren't bad, but that is kind of a douche move. Maybe I misread what you were saying, but that's what I got out of it, anyway.

    Focus

    I would like to point out that it is very easy to bend the rules before you hand an insurgent, suspected or otherwise, over to authorities. If he had shown up looking like that, no one would have given a ****. It's after they're already officially in the system that people start caring. I'm not saying that this is right or wrong, but that's how it is.

    The SEALs involved fucked up and are making a big circus of it. I would almost bet money that they would not have even lost rank if they had accepted UCMJ/NJP. Frankly I think they are being made an example of, but the message being is different from what others seem to think:

    "Don't get caught. And if you do get caught, accept your slap on the wrist and shut the **** up."

    I definitely appreciate the JAG perspective on this Matt. I'm sending you an unrelated PM.
    Last edited by Cassius; 12/26/2009 12:38pm at .
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  2. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/26/2009 12:42pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Stone View Post
    Just to even the scales, mind, I don't trust the uber-liberals, either. They're busy swallowing bucket-loads of their own camp's Kool-aid just as rapidly as the uber-conservatives are. They're both so deeply mired in their own party politics they can't see what's best for the country, generally.
    Thank you for your posts. Often, though, the far right and far left actually agree (not the blathering on both sides: Hannity Rush Moore etc). Utne and La Rouche have a lot in common. Utne some years had a great article on seeing through the Matrix (dominant paradigm - culture, news, propaganda) and La Rouche was the first to tell me about the neo-cons.

    http://www.larouchepub.com/other/200...wolfowitz.html


    http://www.utne.com/politics.aspx

    I saw a resemblance between Bullshido ma and chicken hawks / neo-cons...
    Last edited by patfromlogan; 12/26/2009 12:46pm at .
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  3. Matt Stone is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/26/2009 1:35pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fug View Post
    Thank you for your posts. Often, though, the far right and far left actually agree (not the blathering on both sides: Hannity Rush Moore etc). Utne and La Rouche have a lot in common. Utne some years had a great article on seeing through the Matrix (dominant paradigm - culture, news, propaganda) and La Rouche was the first to tell me about the neo-cons.

    http://www.larouchepub.com/other/200...wolfowitz.html


    http://www.utne.com/politics.aspx
    I'll have to give those a look-see... I don't really listen to the Faux News and Common No News programs because they're all so obviously agenda-biased. The reason I cite them is because they are the "mainstream" sources, aside from network news (which is a slave to advertising even more, I think, than the cable news channels) and print media. Too, too many of my fellow servicemembers, none too interested in "the rest of the story," are happy to take their info from ****-tard talking heads on pseudo-news programs. They'd be better off reading a WWII era Soviet propaganda pamphlet for news - at least the Soviets KNEW it was propaganda!

    Anyway... Bitter? Reservation for one? Your table is ready... :dontknow:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassius
    The SEALs involved fucked up and are making a big circus of it. I would almost bet money that they would not have even lost rank if they had accepted UCMJ/NJP.
    I agree 100%. I've seen the NJP from some SF units, and it's typically just a "friendly financial reminder" that those guys really are still part of the regular Army, despite opinions to the contrary, and the UCMJ still applies to them just as much as it does to every other footslogging dog-face. Had them taken NJP, it would have been kept in-house, most likely, they would have lost a little pay, and could have Soldiered on...

    Further, the imposing commander (at least under Army regulations) has up to 4 months from the date of imposition of punishment within which to suspend the punishment, said suspension running up to a maximum of 6 months from the date of suspension. The commander could, also, should said servicemember really turn over a new leaf (which is the entire purpose of Article 15, UCMJ, which provides for nonjudicial punishment - namely, rehabilitation for minor offenses), set aside the punishment entirely (that means "make it go away like it never, ever happened").

    So, y'all can see from my perspective, why I think these guys are chumps for calling the commander's bluff on this...

    Anyway... :dontknow: I've got bigger fish to fry, so this really, truly is a minor case in my experience. It'll probably end up with a plea agreement of some sort limiting confinement time to a very small amount, or perhaps an administrative separation (read: "you're fired") in lieu of trial by court-martial. This isn't worth wasting the court's time, honestly... But then, the commander knew that from the word go, which is why he offered NJP to begin with...
  4. 2003volusia is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2009 1:52pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There were some rallies in support of the SEALs here in Norfolk VA. Not enough people at them by any means. I would've been there, but was at work myself!
  5. Matt Stone is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/26/2009 2:00pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2003volusia View Post
    There were some rallies in support of the SEALs here in Norfolk VA. Not enough people at them by any means. I would've been there, but was at work myself!
    Support rallies, much like prayer, are what people do when they can't do anything genuinely helpful.

    What purpose would a rally like that serve, other than to get a group of partially informed couch commanders to gather publicly to demonstrate their general ignorance of the entire process, not to mention their lack of direct information regarding the facts of the case?

    The people that didn't attend were the ones with the good sense to realize these guys weren't busy "doing God's work," but instead had devolved to the level of the people they're supposed to be fighting. We're supposed to be better than that. We tell the world we're so moral, so ethical, so developed, but then our blue-collar anti-intellectuals start screaming for muslim heathen blood because one of "them thar boys" is being "done wrong" because he violated the rules we expect the bad guys to fight by.

    Does any of that make sense? Let these guys go because they fought like the chickenshits that they've been fighting against? The same chickenshits that rednecks and hillbillies are constantly crying out for ass-kicking donations for?

    Seriously?
  6. 2003volusia is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2009 2:10pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That is the way you see it. I haven't heard anything about them being proven guilty and I believe the SEALs. That's my right. Maybe in other parts of the country a rally might be what you say, however, since Norfolk is where the SEALs are (at least some of them on that team), I think it shows them support and that means something to them. Sometimes all a person can do is let someone know that you are pulling for them.
  7. Matt Stone is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/26/2009 2:31pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 2003volusia View Post
    That is the way you see it. I haven't heard anything about them being proven guilty and I believe the SEALs.
    You're right... They haven't been proven guilty, because they haven't held the trial yet. That goes without saying...

    As for believing the SEALs, that's a bit premature, don't you think? Wouldn't it be better to believe the evidence, and not the word of the accused? It's simple, really... Photos of dude going into custody = no fat lip. Photos of dude after going into custody = fat lip. It'd be pretty simple to deduce that something had happened, don't you think? Or are you of the mindset that since the guy's in custody, and he's a bad guy, anything our guys do is just fine and dandy? Have we really become so self-righteous that we'll excuse our troopers when they do precisely what pisses us off about the enemy? If we do what they do, are we still "better" than them, somehow? If so, how?

    That's my right.
    I don't really agree. I don't think it's anyone's "right" to believe **** when the evidence points in another direction. We're both presuming much - you, their innocence; me, the likelihood of their guilt - but where I'm open to these sailors being found not guilty, you don't seem to be open to the possibility that they really did beat a helpless man when they were charged with safeguarding said insurgent piece of **** from further harm. Maybe it would have been better for the universe at large if this human filth had been killed in combat. But he wasn't, and it would seem that wasn't the point of the mission, either. So, if the mission was to capture, not kill, and the sailors beat the man after they'd placed him in custody, they're wrong. I'd love to hear your argument on how, if my play-by-play is accurate, you justify that behavior.

    Maybe in other parts of the country a rally might be what you say, however, since Norfolk is where the SEALs are (at least some of them on that team), I think it shows them support and that means something to them. Sometimes all a person can do is let someone know that you are pulling for them.
    You're right - a rally can show someone how other people support them. But it's not up to those people. The sailors have demanded a trial, so it's going to be up to the Military Judge and/or a panel of commissioned officers and petty officers, and they're not going to be swayed by public opinion. I've been in JAG for 15 years, and I've seen dozens and dozens of trials. The people charged with determining guilt or innocence take this pretty seriously, and the elements of the offenses are very plainly outlined.

    I hope, for their sakes, they're exonerated. I don't like seeing careers destroyed, families broken up, lives ruined. I work prosecution, but that doesn't mean I enjoy seeing what happens. However, if they're guilty, I hope they get exactly what they deserve for thinking they were above the law, above regulations, and intrinsically justified in taking out their frustrations on a ready victim.
  8. 2003volusia is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2009 2:48pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Stone View Post
    You're right... They haven't been proven guilty, because they haven't held the trial yet. That goes without saying...

    As for believing the SEALs, that's a bit premature, don't you think? Wouldn't it be better to believe the evidence, and not the word of the accused? It's simple, really... ? Or are you of the mindset that since the guy's in custody, and he's a bad guy, anything our guys do is just fine and dandy? Have we really become so self-righteous that we'll excuse our troopers when they do precisely what pisses us off about the enemy? If we do what they do, are we still "better" than them, somehow? If so, how?



    I don't really agree. I don't think it's anyone's "right" to believe **** when the evidence points in another direction. We're both presuming much - you, their innocence; me, the likelihood of their guilt - but where I'm open to these sailors being found not guilty, you don't seem to be open to the possibility that they really did beat a helpless man when they were charged with safeguarding said insurgent piece of **** from further harm. Maybe it would have been better for the universe at large if this human filth had been killed in combat. But he wasn't, and it would seem that wasn't the point of the mission, either. So, if the mission was to capture, not kill, and the sailors beat the man after they'd placed him in custody, they're wrong. I'd love to hear your argument on how, if my play-by-play is accurate, you justify that behavior.
    Simple. If your play-by-play ends up accuarte, their actions are wrong and they should be punished.

    However, until then I chose to accept their version. Innocent until proven guilty, remember?

    I could seriously see the prisoner pounding his own face against a wall or table in order to screw up his processesing. They are pieces of **** after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Stone View Post
    the evidence points in another direction.........
    Photos of dude going into custody = no fat lip. Photos of dude after going into custody = fat lip. It'd be pretty simple to deduce that something had happened, don't you think
    SOMETHING happened. We don't know what. So it IS my right to choose who I believe. The photos aren't evidence that they struck him in anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Stone View Post
    You're right - a rally can show someone how other people support them. But it's not up to those people. The sailors have demanded a trial, so it's going to be up to the Military Judge and/or a panel of commissioned officers and petty officers, and they're not going to be swayed by public opinion. I've been in JAG for 15 years, and I've seen dozens and dozens of trials. The people charged with determining guilt or innocence take this pretty seriously, and the elements of the offenses are very plainly outlined.
    Of course it isn't up to the masses what the judgement will be and the rally will do nothing in regards to the final judgement. However, it wasn't about that. Again, it was about showing support for someone that a group of people believe is innocent.


    (I cut up the one portion because you had mentioned the 'evidence' in a previous portion and just wanted to put them together....not trying to put words in your mouth)
  9. 2003volusia is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2009 2:50pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Stone View Post
    they were charged with safeguarding said insurgent piece of **** from further harm. Maybe it would have been better for the universe at large if this human filth had been killed in combat.
    ^^^made me laugh! :)
  10. Matt Stone is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/26/2009 3:08pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 2003volusia View Post
    ^^^made me laugh! :)
    Don't misunderstand me... These assholes need to be taught a serious lesson. They crybaby constantly about how terrible we are, how oppressive, yet we have less than 1/2 of 1% of our total force misbehaving, and of that 1/2 of 1%, only a minutiae are anything other than "force on force" crimes (like theft of your buddy's gear, disrespect, etc.). If we really did go weapons free, they'd give that whole "play by the rules" thing another good, close look! With the armored vehicles we have, versus the pathetic building standards this country has (I mean, really... water lines duct taped to electrical conduits? Really?), if we wanted to raze this place to the ground it wouldn't take much. The fact that we've been here going on 8 years and they still have buildings (much less the fact that we gave them electricity and running water, not some Islam-ass-kissing dictator) is a testament to the discipline with which we've prosecuted this "war."

    What this place needs, worse than anything else, is a fucking wake up call to the 21st century. They need to set aside their medieval approach to equality, they need to retire their bullshit mythologies, and they need to realize that they, not some make-believe deity, are responsible for the heinous **** they do to other people. Plain and simple.

    That all being said - we don't play by their rules, we play by ours. Innocent until proven guilty, yes. But you'll note I'm not cheering on either side - not the SEALs nor the insurgent piece of human filth. Did that assface deserve a good kicking? Probably. Would I have taken pleasure in seeing him squirm and cry like a little bitch when the tables were turned and he was the poor son of a dog-bitch getting tortured? You bet. Karma's a ************. That being said, our rules are what make us better than these death-cultists. No matter how badly these ****-wits deserve the beating, no matter how cosmically just it might seem to destroy them and their culture utterly, providing freshly tilled earth on which to build a society that realizes antiquated notions of tribal affiliation only retard their development and entry into the world community (and it's what keeps them poor, hungry, stupid and miserable), those aren't our rules. Our rules say "lead by example." Our rule say "behave with restraint and mercy, because we think those are good things." Our rules say "break our rules, and we'll pound your nutsack with a ball peen hammer."

    I don't want the SEALs to get punished. I don't want this insurgent **** to get over on the system. But I'm not rooting for either side, nor am I going to blindly proclaim allegiance to one side or another until this whole thing gets sorted out. How stupid might you feel, after supporting the SEALs just because they're American, and SEALs, if it turns out they really were dirty and just beat this guy's ass "just 'cuz?"

    And yes, the insurgents are pieces of dog ****, but that doesn't mean dude is going to beat his own face against the wall just to test his captors and see if they'll discipline their own troops. That's quite a stretch there... They might blow themselves to smithereens when they know they can take a few enemy with them, but kicking your own ass on the off chance someone might get yelled at? Unlikely in the extreme...
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