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  1. foxguitar is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2009 5:51pm


     Style: Shotokan/Shorin Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    True but, I know what I am. That's our difference. I'd rather save Matt some time from listening to you explain how you aren't an ass and you know what you are talking about.
    well truth is in this one I dont know what I am talking about , I never was in the Military and speaking my mind in a strictly emotional and admittedly wrong manner . truth is if a LEO abused a prisoner the LEO would be bought up on charges and depending on the severity of the injury to the suspect , would be facing anywhere from departmental to all out legal sanctions.

    It just galls me admittedly strictly emotionally these terrorists laugh at our code of Justice and have no problem beheading their captives and here we have to treat them with kid gloves .
    Move along citizen ,nothing to see here !!!!!
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/25/2009 6:04pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by foxguitar View Post
    well truth is in this one I dont know what I am talking about , I never was in the Military and speaking my mind in a strictly emotional and admittedly wrong manner . truth is if a LEO abused a prisoner the LEO would be bought up on charges and depending on the severity of the injury to the suspect , would be facing anywhere from departmental to all out legal sanctions.
    Which is exactly what Matt is stating.


    It just galls me admittedly strictly emotionally these terrorists laugh at our code of Justice and have no problem beheading their captives and here we have to treat them with kid gloves .
    I understand this emotion. I was one of the ones laughing when they angrily joked about indiscriminately turning all of Afghanistan to glass.

    Then again if we want to set standards of war, we need to follow those standards regardless of the actions of others.
  3. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2009 6:04pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by foxguitar View Post
    It just galls me admittedly strictly emotionally these terrorists laugh at our code of Justice and have no problem beheading their captives and here we have to treat them with kid gloves .
    If 'you' are the good guys it is precisely because of that galling distinction.
  4. King Sleepless is offline
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    I am a living legend!

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2009 10:54pm

    supporting member
     Style: Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
    Let's see, I bring up something I read about in Vietnam war history books. Maybe I'm wrong. But then I ask for more details so that maybe I can learn something more realistic, or hear someone's firsthand account that contradicts conventional wisdom. Either way, the community stands to benefit from the discussion.

    You're like some high school kid who chimes in trying to ride on the coat tails of some popular kid who gets mad at some other kid.

    Not everyone cares about your iPenis, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kickapoo View Post
    The question you asked was in bad taste. I think this is what Sirc is trying to say.
    This is the point, Wounded.

    Now shut the **** up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Stone View Post
    Being in the Army JAG Corps (and a former infantryman and scout), I always get a big kick out of the neo-con armchair warriors who think that kicking ass and taking names is all there is to this war... War is the physical extension of political power, and the key word there is not "power" but "political." Since we're at least *supposed* to be the good guys, that means we play by rules we set for ourselves, that we'd like the enemy to follow, too, but that we state from the outset that we'll follow regardless. It's what makes us difference from the thugs, criminals, and terrorists we're fighting - a moral and ethical code that governs how we fight.

    For the armchair generals who'd like us to kick in every local's head we happen across, can you consider for a moment the logical extreme of such "weapons free" behavior? As it is, for every ignorant mistake made that results in a local's medieval sensitivities being offended (e.g. shooting Korans/Qu'rans, throwing puppies, raping local girls, etc.), we create a new crop of insurgents willing to die for virgins/raisins in order to avenge the insult. Were we to let slip the puppies of war, were we to discard the rules we've been the driving force behind establishing, we'd create even more enemies than we currently have bullets for.

    Back on point...

    The SEALs were afforded Captain's Mast/Nonjudicial Punishment. THEY TURNED IT DOWN. Their ego, for whatever reason, decided they'd rather be tried by a military judge, perhaps a panel of commissioned officers and senior noncommissioned officers, in order to dispose of their alleged misconduct.

    If we pretend for a moment that the officer administering the nonjudicial punishment was an O-5 or higher (likely, given the nature of the situation), the maximum punishment these enlisted men would face would be:

    Reduction (E-6 to E-5 max, or E-5 to E-4 max);
    Forfeiture of 1/2 of one month's pay for two months;
    Restriction for up to 60 days or 45 days if combined with Extra Duty;
    Extra Duty for up to 45 days;
    Written or Oral Reprimand.

    That's all independent of the number of charges levied against them. One charge, ten charges, same maximum punishment.

    The SEALs' egos got in the way, though. So, instead of the above punishment maximum, they'd now be facing years in prison, federal convictions, reductions to the lowest enlisted grade, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and a punitive discharge (dishonorable or bad-conduct). I could cite the max punishments for each charge, but I don't have my Manual for Courts-Martial here in my quarters with me (it's at the office).

    Bottom line, those of you who think these poor, helpless men are being given such a raw deal - THEY ASKED FOR IT. Now shut your cockholsters, keep your opinions under lock and key, and let the people who know the real details (and who don't have to guess at them from the safety of their couches) do their jobs...

    From what I understand, they had the ****-head insurgent in custody. Then they decided to give him a beating; they didn't beat his ass and fatten his lip while they were catching him. Then they tried to cover it up and hide the details once they'd been found out. None of that screams "silent professional" to me. They're just behaving like a bunch of unruly bullies, and that's not what we're supposed to be about. We're Americans, and though we fall short of the mark on a regular basis, we still aspire to be better than that, better than our enemies, better than everyone else. These punks failed to do that, and instead they let their emotions overwhelm their professionalism. They were given the option of administrative punishment, but they wanted their day in court. Now they're going to get it, and if they get ass-hammered for their troubles, too fucking bad. I bet they'd wish someone would offer them the Captain's Mast again...

    See ya in the showers, convicts! Hope that federal conviction for roughing someone up matters to the murderers and rapists you'll be bunking with!
    Winner winner chicken dinner.
  5. Suprore is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2009 11:01pm


     Style: Bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Obviously, the only two possibilities are that either all US soldiers are murdering psychopaths denying the rudiments of human morality and willfully inflicting harm on innocents, or saints absolved from any kind of oversight, second guessing, or reproach.

    The presence of any kind of nuanced, complex issue just seems hard to believe. War must be simple, and black and white!
  6. Matt Stone is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/25/2009 11:35pm

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     Style: FMA, CMA, & more

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Suprore View Post
    Obviously, the only two possibilities are that either all US soldiers are murdering psychopaths denying the rudiments of human morality and willfully inflicting harm on innocents, or saints absolved from any kind of oversight, second guessing, or reproach.

    The presence of any kind of nuanced, complex issue just seems hard to believe. War must be simple, and black and white!
    Fixed:

    "Obviously, the only two possibilities are that either all insurgents are murdering psychopaths denying the rudiments of human morality and willfully inflicting harm on innocents, or saints absolved from any kind of oversight, second guessing, or reproach.

    The presence of any kind of nuanced, complex issue just seems hard to believe. Law must be simple, and black and white!"
    Last edited by Matt Stone; 12/25/2009 11:46pm at .
  7. hapkido_keith is offline
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    Crappler Extraordinaire

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2009 12:18am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Matt Stone,

    I'm not going to quote your whole post, but you are factually correct. However, I might fault you that your post reeks of an assumption of guilt on the part of the accused. It IS possible that the accused have requested courts martial because of their egos, but as I stated before it is also possible that they are requesting courts martial because they are, in fact, innocent, and do not believe that they will be given a fair dealing at mast. If I am not mistaken, this is the very purpose of allowing the accused to request courts martial in lieu of mast in the first place.

    I have never dealt with SEALS and they may very well be the cowboys they are made out to be. If they roughed up a suspect because they felt like dishing out their own field justice, they deserve what's coming to them. But I doubt these highly trained warriors, cowboys they may be, decided to request courts martial for the **** of it. I think they honestly feel that they acted within the laws, rules and regulations governing them, and I think they have a pretty fucking solid good reason to feel this way. They will have their day in court where the prosecution must prove that they broke the law. I hope they are treated fairly.
  8. hungryjoe is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2009 12:42am

    supporting member
     Style: judo hiatus

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by hapkido_keith View Post
    Matt Stone,

    I'm not going to quote your whole post, but you are factually correct. However, I might fault you that your post reeks of an assumption of guilt on the part of the accused. It IS possible that the accused have requested courts martial because of their egos, but as I stated before it is also possible that they are requesting courts martial because they are, in fact, innocent, and do not believe that they will be given a fair dealing at mast. If I am not mistaken, this is the very purpose of allowing the accused to request courts martial in lieu of mast in the first place.
    This must be held in consideration.

    AND

    Sirc,

    You should shut the **** up on this one. This is not a topic for your trolling persona. You want to add some intelligent dialog, by all means interject yourself into the conversation. If not, again, shut the **** up.
  9. Suprore is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2009 12:56am


     Style: Bjj

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by hapkido_keith View Post
    I hope they are treated fairly.
    Yeah, there's a huge chance these soldiers will be treated unfairly to push a political agenda. Military courts are well known for their radical liberalism and activist judges.
  10. hapkido_keith is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/26/2009 1:13am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Suprore View Post
    Yeah, there's a huge chance these soldiers will be treated unfairly to push a political agenda. Military courts are well known for their radical liberalism and activist judges.
    My sarcasm meter is out of cal, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.

    I only hope that they are given a fair trial, in which evidence is presented and weighed honestly by a jury. If they did it: **** em. If they didn't: let em go.

    And I second that Sirc keeps his dick-waving drama out of the Armory.
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