I may be remembering incorrectly, but my impression from Cerkuenik's posts in the other thread is that only judo and MMA classes are easily available to him at the moment.
Of the other options you suggest, I agree that combat SAMBO would be an excellent choice, even closer to kampfringen than judo is.
I'm not so sure about GR wrestling; the lack of trips, lower body holds and especially the lack of jointlock throws and takedowns (plus the fact that it's a jacketless style) moves it pretty far away from kampfringen. Yes, some GR techniques are very similar to kampfringen and it's great for training, but for Cerkuenik's purposes, I'd suggest judo in the first instance and second your recommendation for combat SAMBO if he can find it.
Yeah, I actually just read this thread and skipped the other one entirely. So I have no idea where he is from or what is available there. My advice was more meant like "Take Judo (or sambo if you can find some), but if the chance ever occurs also consider...".
Originally Posted by DdlR
You are right about greco-roman wrestling. I would say that greco-roman (or one of the backhold folkstyles) by itself is not sufficient as a basis for kampfringen. But its a very good addition. Especially because there are some striking similarities in certain techniques and because its a good way for save training plus added competition.
thank you very much for the advices...
I mentioned judo and mma because itīs the grappling arts available around here, there are other "famous" arts around here too like boxe, Muai Thai, karate, bjj even hung gar, sumo and ninjutsu (but I donīt trust the school that teaches ninjutsu, it looks very much like a macdojo).
I was thinking about mma because I believe they teach wrestling aswell (I donīt know which style) and may be more useful than only judo (?)
Willaume, thereīs an aikido dojo around here too, do you think itīs more related to kampringen than judo?
sorry for any english mistakes.
well, I live in Londrina Brazil, and unfourtanely wma are very rare around here.
Last edited by cerkuenik; 12/12/2009 2:16pm at .
Reason: forgot to mention another MA
This is how I got started. However I had the benefit of 27 years of regular/continuous training in several arts (Karate, Kempo, Muay Thai, FMA and JKD) to help me analyze what I was reading/studying, and look at it somewhat objectively.
Originally Posted by Tyrsmann
At this point I have two training partners whom I meet with once a week (usually), so I am not quite training solo anymore, but still consider myself self-taught.
All the Best,
Cerkuenik, it sounds as if you want someone to tell you that MMA would be better for your purposes than judo, but that really isn't the case.
Given that you've said that you're specifically interested in studying something to help your kampfringen, judo is the closest analog out of the styles you're listed so far. The taijutsu unarmed combat you'd learn in a ninjutsu school has some similarities to kampfringen, but most people here would advise against going that route.
Aikido offers a good selection of jointlock takedowns that parallel some kampfringen techniques; the same/similar takedowns are often taught as goshin jutsu (self defense techniques) in judo.
MMA is a sporting rule-set rather than a style in itself, and it can be hard to generalize about what you'd be earning in a MMA club because different clubs teach different combinations of styles. Broadly speaking, though, MMA clubs focus a great deal of training time on boxing, kicking, jacketless takedowns and especially groundfighting, all of which are of limited application to historical kampfringen.
Thank you DdlR, Iīm really interested in practicing Judo, to help my understanding and to have much more grappling partners than our HEMA group.
My interest in mma was that they teach wrestling aswell, and I wanted to practice a Wma rather than a Eastern one.
but as I said, thatīs whatīs most peolple HEMA practioners did.
thanks again! lots of plans for next year! :happy:
I understand. Perhaps ironically, though, in this case a Japanese style (judo) is technically closer to historical German kampfringen than are modern European wrestling styles.
Originally Posted by cerkuenik
Do check out combat SAMBO, even just by watching some YouTube clips; it's actually about the closest modern kampfringen analog that I can think of.
Yup, especially watching competition vids can be very educating. Much of the good material is in Russian, so seeking for "Боевое Самбо" (Russian for "Combat Sambo") might be helpful.
Originally Posted by DdlR
Originally Posted by cerkuenik
It is very likely that you will find aikido very not useful.
Most of aikido practices you will find are as terrifying as aggressive knitting or may be even modern ballet.
Don’t get me wrong there are some dojos, where the aikido practiced is the dog’s danglers but they are more the exception than the rule.
Ironically, aikido should be very useful for ringen.
It was very easy for me to understand the mortchloss, because in the aikido I practice there is no technique that do start without striking uke somewhere before we do a technique
Or because of the influence of Abe sensei who was a judoka, I am used to put koshy (hip throw) in every technique and choking was part of the original curriculum.
We have 16 standard attacks from which you will do 9 techniques, each and those 9 techniques can be done two ways. As uncle Ringeck put it “going against you opponent” (irimi) or “letting it pass by” (tankan or tenchin) .
As well in there you are bound to have medieval text book techniques, like grabbing from behind with your arms around or grabbing the back of the collar.
The standard attacks done with movement (you start from static to learn) and each grab becomes a pull or a push and always with a strike form your opponents free hand, so it a bit more relefan for zu lauffen ringen.
But in numerous places and we are skipping tree-hugging fluffy bunny aiki, you will only have 4 form of attacks, two wrist grabs and pants shomen and dreadful yokumen, They will practice techniques from the right side and every technique will start with a diagonal step back (tenchin). So it is much harder to find something that will help you in Ringen but it will shade some light on some of the Zu laufen part.
So I think judo/sambo is a safer bet.
Last edited by willaume; 12/13/2009 9:15am at .
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