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  1. permahudef is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2009 4:58pm


     Style: BJJ/MuayThai/Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    There's a small movement towards reviving the skills/rules of (18th-19th century) BKB, but with some modern concessions towards safety; use of MMA gloves and face protectors, etc. We've had some good threads on that subject on BS.net in the past, and I came up with a set of old-school pugilism rules for Bullshido throwdowns a while ago.
    Bareknuckle boxing wearing gloves is like having unprotected sex wearing a condom.

    Is that a better analogy, MMAMickey?:qgreenjum
  2. Just Guess is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2009 5:09pm


     Style: ukemi & tapping out

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post
    I have mixed feelings about practicing other MA on the side when you are a historical fencer, though this depends on the individual I think. If you are serious about being historically accurate, you run the risk of contaminating of the overall historical WMA.
    While historical accuracy is a nice ideal it doesn't seem to be feasible in most cases. In a lot cases these practices just completely died out only leaving manuals behind, so things have to be pieced together from a combination of book study, intelligent guesses, and individuals experience from practicing other styles.
  3. MMAMickey is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/10/2009 5:48pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Boxing.MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by permahudef View Post
    Bareknuckle boxing wearing gloves is like having unprotected sex wearing a condom.

    Is that a better analogy, MMAMickey?:qgreenjum
    indeed, I'd be a liar if I said I didn't smile at that one. lol
  4. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/10/2009 7:05pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...lism+throwdown

    Here's the modified BKB rules thread, including a couple of video clips from some guys at a throwdown experimenting with the rules. They actually ended up doing modified Sanda, including breaking from the clinch and allowing lower-body throws, but it was a decent effort. There's at least one nice boxing/throw combo early in the first vid that is very close to the type of sparring these rules were intended for.
  5. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/11/2009 10:10am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post
    I have mixed feelings about practicing other MA on the side when you are a historical fencer, though this depends on the individual I think. If you are serious about being historically accurate, you run the risk of contaminating of the overall historical WMA. But on the other hand if you are just trying to add the sword to your overall arsenal, I think cross-training is really a good idea. I myself have considered picking up some Muay Thai or even a little BJJ to help me with my clinch and ground work. It wouldn't be a bad idea for the fencers posting here to attend a local Throwdown either. All depends on what you're looking to do...
    You are not wrong there buddy

    That being said it is a bit a catch 22. I am talking from a 15th century manuscript and pretty much like jousting you sort of need to have done it for a while before it makes some sense.
    So I think it is good to practice and or spare with as many people you can. You do need the experience to put the text in context. Otherwise you end up with interpretation that does not really work.

    That being said , as you mentioned, you need to make sure that you do not frog-dna the suff. But most of us in the HEMA world have done something before so you will have cross polenisation.
    Ideally you should be good enough in what ever art you practiced before to see the effect of the paradigm and the context of fight has on why thing are done a certain way in the said art, but it is but that easy or obvious.

    phil
  6. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/11/2009 3:38pm


     Style: Bowie

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post
    I have mixed feelings about practicing other MA on the side when you are a historical fencer, though this depends on the individual I think. If you are serious about being historically accurate, you run the risk of contaminating of the overall historical WMA.
    The argument is usually made that most HEMAs are without lineage and frequently fragmentary in records/manual and must be practiced with a certain degree of "experimental archeology" which often includes (of necessity) comparison against active styles with living lineages. Thus the worry of "contamination" is often dismissed as a non-issue, or at least unavoidable.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  7. cerkuenik is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2009 1:21am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: HEMA (longsword)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi,

    Thank to all for the tips.

    I also used to think that studying other MA style outsite european tradition would contaminate my studies.

    But nowadays I think the opposite, although EMA are not my favorite arts, I really want to practice so I can compare and constrast (and thatīs what most WMA pioneers did, right? they all practiced living traditions).

    do you guys think that Judo is the best art to practice to help my kampfringen study? oh should I try MMA? (I mean, strikes, throwdows and ground-grappling?)


    About BKB, I got really interested in when I watched Allan Orr dvds, Itīs 6 dvds about his experience on mixing bkb with wing chun applied to mma.

    sorry for any english mistakes.

    ______________________________
    Bruno Cerkuenik
    http://arsgladiatoria.wordpress.com/
  8. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/12/2009 1:34am

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by cerkuenik View Post
    do you guys think that Judo is the best art to practice to help my kampfringen study? oh should I try MMA? (I mean, strikes, throwdows and ground-grappling?)
    Well, four of us in the ground-fighting thread have already recommended judo for that specific purpose.
  9. kwan_dao is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2009 5:31am


     Style: sambo, stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    The argument is usually made that most HEMAs are without lineage and frequently fragmentary in records/manual and must be practiced with a certain degree of "experimental archeology" which often includes (of necessity) comparison against active styles with living lineages. Thus the worry of "contamination" is often dismissed as a non-issue, or at least unavoidable.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
    Which I think is absolutely true. With no comparison to living martial arts HEMA would basically be pulling techniques out of thin air. It is commonly accepted that one can hardly learn a martial art from videos or modern-day books (with extensive descriptions and photo-sequences). Even less would it be possible to do so solely from books containing either short rhymes without pictures or badly drawn single pictures with hardly any description except a few almost random words/rhymes.

    IMHO on the other hand it is extremely dangerous to adapt the "we have to do things different, because we are reinventing a different art" point of view.

    There are only so many ways to wield a weapon/throw an opponent, etc. Simple logic dictates that ancient japanese or thai fighters (just as an example) will have done a lot of things in the exact same way a 15th century Landsknecht would have done them.

    A good example are all kinds of wrestling. If you do a takedown/throw significantly different from those known in the folk-styles, greco-roman, shuai-jiao or judo/jiu-jitsu, you are probably just doing it wrong. Most likely in a way that would get you in trouble with a resisting and trained opponent (aka someone who has prior training, as opposed to "pure" HEMA knowledge).

    The more you try to actively distance yourself from those common basics, the bigger the risk of producing complete bollocks as a result.
  10. kwan_dao is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2009 5:45am


     Style: sambo, stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Well, four of us in the ground-fighting thread have already recommended judo for that specific purpose.
    Seconded, because Judo is cheap and widely available. :happy7:

    If available, I would consider training in any folk-style or greco-roman wrestling. Not only did those arts (at least the german/austrian and swiss variants) have strong ties with the "Kampfringen" and were often practised by the same people, they also deserve to be trained and kept alive on their own accounts.

    Another good option would be sambo. The "georgian influence" may place it much nearer to "Kampfringen" then many other living arts (probably with the exception of actual georgian wrestling). With combat sambo you may even get a few decent fists and knees to the head while attempting to throw. :toothy5:
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