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  1. Adam Alexander is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/06/2009 6:05pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by hpr View Post
    Oh really? Why is it then that I keep hearing about Greg Jackson or Mark Dellagrotte or any of those top coaches all the fucking time when I watch UFC? I mean, substitute professor with coach and there you go.
    In the context of the winner quitting fighting and just teaching or acting, etc.

    There will always be exceptions to the rule that will say "he's nothing without Prof X." However, we're not talking about the exceptions (since the question suggests and challenges the rule).
  2. maofas is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/06/2009 6:13pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kenkojuku Karate, Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
    I could be wrong, but if Van Damme studies those arts I'm pretty sure it's recent. I was always under the impression that his "martial" skill came from a green belt in karate (shotokan I think) and ballet. I thought his claims at being a Kickboxing champion were made up. Of course someone could prove me wrong. I'm definitely not that knowledgeable about him.
    If I am remembering correctly: he competed under his real name, not Van Damme, I forget what it is. He was a shodan (?) in Shotokan, moved into European above-the-waist kickboxing, had about dozenish wins, no lesses, competed internationally as an amateur and won some fairly prestigious amateur tournament.

    Hardly modern K1 level stuff, but not too shabby either.
  3. Larus marinus is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/06/2009 9:42pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Nothing - yet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Alexander View Post
    Disclaimer: I don't care about Seagal and never have. I didn't start Aikido because of him and if I had known what he was doing was a style of Aikido, I probably wouldn't have investigated the art any further. I don't like his lines.

    I started Aikido because the style's lines were crisp; the techniques were sharp. Seagal's technique doesn't have the edge that I like. So, my following defense isn't meant to celebrate his Aikido or him.

    My history is five or six years in a "hard" style followed by five or four years solo kata work. (it's total 11 yrs) No rank to speak of.


    In response to the question above, Seagal is held to a different standard because his technique is out there in full view. We require lineage for those whose technique is not open and requires some sort of credibility. Seagal is comparable to someone who wins the UFC in regard to setting an art's standard.

    Win the UFC, it's no longer "respect him because he trained under prof. X." It's now"respect the guys he trains."

    Seagal, love him or hate him, made it to the top of a mountain. Which mountain? I don't know. But he now gets a free pass on his training history because of that.

    Now, that doesn't mean that you have to or should respect him. If you find his mountain to be unappealing, then you reject everything. It doesn't matter who trained him because you reject it.

    That's my two cents.
    As far as Seagal's Aikido skills go, the evidence would suggest that the guy is very, very legit. He's a 7th degree blackbelt and would probably be completely justified to refer to himself as 'one of the foremost Aikido experts in North America'. I'd imagine that further promotions are still to come for services to the art.

    The man has spent 40 years of his life climbing his chosen mountain to get to where he is now, with all the blood, sweat, bruises and tears (and likely no shortage of dealing with internal political bullshit) that goes along with it and I absolutely respect him for that, regardless of whatever else I think of him.

    That said, a man who knows from his own experience the effort and commitment required to become a 'master' for real should be the *last person on earth* to be claiming ranking in styles in which he did not train (note: we don't know if Seagal himself actually ever claimed to be dan ranked in Judo - this might've just been something that someone else put out on the internet) or making vague claims of studying an art under a secret, unnamed, unverifiable master. That sort of **** should be complete and utter anathema to anyone who holds 'the r3al' for real.

    My two cents in return.
  4. Adam Alexander is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/06/2009 9:54pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larus marinus View Post
    As far as Seagal's Aikido skills go, the evidence would suggest that the guy is very, very legit. He's a 7th degree blackbelt and would probably be completely justified to refer to himself as 'one of the foremost Aikido experts in North America'. I'd imagine that further promotions are still to come for services to the art.

    The man has spent 40 years of his life climbing his chosen mountain to get to where he is now, with all the blood, sweat, bruises and tears (and likely no shortage of dealing with internal political bullshit) that goes along with it and I absolutely respect him for that, regardless of whatever else I think of him.

    That said, a man who knows from his own experience the effort and commitment required to become a 'master' for real should be the *last person on earth* to be claiming ranking in styles in which he did not train (note: we don't know if Seagal himself actually ever claimed to be dan ranked in Judo - this might've just been something that someone else put out on the internet) or making vague claims of studying an art under a secret, unnamed, unverifiable master. That sort of **** should be complete and utter anathema to anyone who holds 'the r3al' for real.

    My two cents in return.
    You're preaching to the choir about him not having to back up claims. I'm just saying why Joe Blow gives him a pass.
  5. Larus marinus is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/06/2009 11:55pm

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     Style: Nothing - yet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Alexander View Post
    You're preaching to the choir about him not having to back up claims. I'm just saying why Joe Blow gives him a pass.
    Ah, okay. Fair 'nuff. I thought that you were saying that because SS is high-ranking and out there, that he doesn't need to prove jack **** to anyone about anything else...
  6. Iainkelt is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/07/2009 2:33pm


     Style: 10thP/BJJ/Wrestling/Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by maofas View Post
    If I am remembering correctly: he competed under his real name, not Van Damme, I forget what it is. He was a shodan (?) in Shotokan, moved into European above-the-waist kickboxing, had about dozenish wins, no lesses, competed internationally as an amateur and won some fairly prestigious amateur tournament.

    Hardly modern K1 level stuff, but not too shabby either.
    For the record, I believe his given last name is Van Varenberg. I also remember a decent number of posts/articles about his kickboxing records/accomplishments and my impression was always that he was a solid and legit fighter even if he wasn't a world champion.
  7. NeilG is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/07/2009 4:48pm


     Style: Kendo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larus marinus View Post
    Black Belt Magazine interview with Seagal from 1990 where he discusses his kenjutsu training.

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=V...njutsu&f=false
    The references to "kenjutsu" in the BB article ring very false to me. Nobody who really studies koryu would make blanket statements like "there's never a block and a counter". They wouldn't typically call it "kenjutsu", either - that's a very broad term encompassing a lot of koryu.

    Just based on what I've seen of his swordwork in the movies, the man has no or very little training in any sort of swordsmanship.
  8. kenso is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/07/2009 5:17pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larus marinus View Post
    Black Belt Magazine interview with Seagal from 1990 where he discusses his kenjutsu training.

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=V...njutsu&f=false

    Note that he doesn't actually state the name of this secretive Zen priest sword teacher anywhere. It would be a major red flag if some krotty guy in Bumfuck, North Dakota was claiming this sort of thing on his website - and I don't see why Seagal should be held to a differing standard...

    A fair bit of other stuff in there that some of you guys might have an opinion on too...
    Here's a bit of evidence regarding Seagal's claims and their validity. Your post reminded me that I'd seen an article with Seagal in it a couple of decades ago. I dug back and found the article: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=b...age&q=&f=false

    In it, Mr. Seagal is interviewed, and claims to have been an uchi deshi of Ueshiba sensei, and to have spent the last few years of Ueshiba's life serving him. This is quite interesting. Seagal talks about training with Ueshiba, about massaging him, and about delving into the secrets of Ueshiba's teachings. What's REALLY interesting about all this is that Ueshiba Morihei died in 1969, and Mr. Seagal didn't go to Japan until 1971. You can draw your own conclusions from there.
  9. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/07/2009 5:24pm

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenso View Post
    What's REALLY interesting about all this is that Ueshiba Morihei died in 1969, and Mr. Seagal didn't go to Japan until 1971. You can draw your own conclusions from there.
    That archive of Black Belt mag is the gift that keeps giving.
  10. Lominus is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/07/2009 5:38pm


     Style: Aikido

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenso View Post
    Here's a bit of evidence regarding Seagal's claims and their validity. Your post reminded me that I'd seen an article with Seagal in it a couple of decades ago. I dug back and found the article: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=b...age&q=&f=false

    In it, Mr. Seagal is interviewed, and claims to have been an uchi deshi of Ueshiba sensei, and to have spent the last few years of Ueshiba's life serving him. This is quite interesting. Seagal talks about training with Ueshiba, about massaging him, and about delving into the secrets of Ueshiba's teachings. What's REALLY interesting about all this is that Ueshiba Morihei died in 1969, and Mr. Seagal didn't go to Japan until 1971. You can draw your own conclusions from there.
    Seagal was never an Uchideshi anywhere. Abe sensei was his primary instuctor and received some sword training from Abe but I don't suspect a whole lot.
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