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  1. migo is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2009 2:35am


     Style: Baboo Baby

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That one with the signatures replacing the old one is pretty damn telling.
  2. theotherserge is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/04/2009 2:38am

    Join us... or die
     Style: sambo/crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Seems desperate, eh?
    Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become totally ignorant.
    -Mentat Text Two (dicto)
  3. Cy Q. Faunce is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/04/2009 4:36am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Finding You

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is an admission of guilt. There is no scanning error that would make those signatures disappear and then appear, and no scanning artifact that would account for those signatures against a noiseless background.

    He should admit his situation. There would be more dignity in it.
  4. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2009 10:45am

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Agreed. He messed up big time with that one.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  5. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2009 12:46pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sambosteve View Post
    This thread gave me cause to once again look at Sonnon's "honorable Master of Sport" rank again. A rank he claims was given to him by then ASF president Lenny Polyakov, who say he does not recall granting Sonnon that rank (he states he only gave him "Master of Sport" from the ASF).

    I have looked at this cert many times (posted on his website):
    Hmm ....

    This is the first time I've actually taken more than a glance at this certificate. The document's authenticity notwithstanding, the certificate clearly states "Honorable Master of Sport" in two places. However, Scott claims a "Distinguished Master of Sport" in many places on the web. For instance, it's in his bio here on one of his own websites: http://www.agelessmobility.com/SonnonBio.pdf .

    Also, if you look through the edit history of Scott's Wikipedia page, you will find more than a few attempts by various people to either change "Distinguished Master of Sport" to "Honorable Master of Sport", or remove the modifier and leave it at "Master of Sport". These edits were consistently reverted. (Interestingly, the current revision of the page says "Master of Sport".)

    In the thread on the WWG website, Scott previously posited, in response to Dayn DeRose, that such a discrepancy between "Distinguished" and "Honorable" was a matter of translation choice. Worldwide Grappling Forums - View Single Post - Scott Sonnon. Washington. Sambo for MMA/Saddle?


    I do not speak Russian. However, at the time of the above comment of Scott's, this translation issue was explained to me by a native Russian speaker whom I used to work with. In his youth, my coworker was a 'Master of Sport Candidate' in Judo and also in a sport he called 'Underwater Swimming' under the former U.S.S.R. regime before he emigrated to the United States. As explained to me by my coworker, Russian does use the same word for both 'distinguished' and 'honorable' in many cases. However, he also went on to explain there are some contexts where the meaning of 'distinguished' vs. 'honorable' is quite clear. When I asked him about the case of a 'Distinguished Master of Sport', he said "Oh yes, absolutely different", then rattled off the proper Russian words (which I don't remember) to show the difference between 'distinguished' and 'honored' in that context. As explained, there is a difference and it would be like receiving a real degree from a university vs. being awarded an honorary degree.

    Okay fine, let's play hypothetical for a moment and accept, for the sake of argument, that there really is no difference in the Russian language and it is translation issue: 'distinguished' = 'honored' = 'merited', etc. If your certificate clearly says "Honorable" in English in two places, why would a person choose to use an alternate translation of a Russian word which is not written in Russian on your certificate?
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 12/04/2009 12:50pm at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  6. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2009 2:37pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan View Post
    Hmm ....

    This is the first time I've actually taken more than a glance at this certificate. The document's authenticity notwithstanding, the certificate clearly states "Honorable Master of Sport" in two places. However, Scott claims a "Distinguished Master of Sport" in many places on the web. For instance, it's in his bio here on one of his own websites: http://www.agelessmobility.com/SonnonBio.pdf .

    Also, if you look through the edit history of Scott's Wikipedia page, you will find more than a few attempts by various people to either change "Distinguished Master of Sport" to "Honorable Master of Sport", or remove the modifier and leave it at "Master of Sport". These edits were consistently reverted. (Interestingly, the current revision of the page says "Master of Sport".)

    In the thread on the WWG website, Scott previously posited, in response to Dayn DeRose, that such a discrepancy between "Distinguished" and "Honorable" was a matter of translation choice. Worldwide Grappling Forums - View Single Post - Scott Sonnon. Washington. Sambo for MMA/Saddle?


    I do not speak Russian. However, at the time of the above comment of Scott's, this translation issue was explained to me by a native Russian speaker whom I used to work with. In his youth, my coworker was a 'Master of Sport Candidate' in Judo and also in a sport he called 'Underwater Swimming' under the former U.S.S.R. regime before he emigrated to the United States. As explained to me by my coworker, Russian does use the same word for both 'distinguished' and 'honorable' in many cases. However, he also went on to explain there are some contexts where the meaning of 'distinguished' vs. 'honorable' is quite clear. When I asked him about the case of a 'Distinguished Master of Sport', he said "Oh yes, absolutely different", then rattled off the proper Russian words (which I don't remember) to show the difference between 'distinguished' and 'honored' in that context. As explained, there is a difference and it would be like receiving a real degree from a university vs. being awarded an honorary degree.

    Okay fine, let's play hypothetical for a moment and accept, for the sake of argument, that there really is no difference in the Russian language and it is translation issue: 'distinguished' = 'honored' = 'merited', etc. If your certificate clearly says "Honorable" in English in two places, why would a person choose to use an alternate translation of a Russian word which is not written in Russian on your certificate?
    You nailed it. It makes absolutely no sense that Sonnon would have ever said anything other than what is printed on his certificate. In fact, if he has ever advertised himself as "Honorable Master of Sport", I can not find it. The truth is that Sonnon has a long history of calling himself anything but that.

    For example:

    Feb 02, 2000

    Scott Sonnon, US Sambo Team Coach, Master of Sport in Sambo, the first non-Russian certified trainer & Hall of Fame Master of the Year, brings a rare opportunity to enhance your game, no matter what your style!
    Apr 07, 2001

    Scott Sonnon, USA National Team Coach, International Champion, Master of Sport, the first non-Russian certified trainer & Hall of Fame Master of the Year, brings you the BEST NEW VIDEO OF THE YEAR voted into the International Martial Arts Hall of Fame!

    Oct 04, 2001

    SCOTT SONNON, USA National Coach, World Medalist, Honored Master of Sport, the first non-Russian certified trainer & Hall of Fame Master of the Year, brings you a HOME TRAINING REVOLUTION!


    May 13, 2002
    Earned the Distinguished Master of Sport in Sambo degree from FIAS - 1999 (very rare award to earn if non-Russian, awarded to international champions who make significant world contributions to the sport)
    May 04, 2006
    FIAS Distinguished Master Of Sport in Sambo
    The last example may be the most damning, as his certificate is issued from the AFA and says "Honorable Master of Sport". Whatever the meaning of "Honorable" in this context, Sonnon only wishes he had MoS from FIAS. That would make him the real deal for sure.

    Note that he has called himself "Master of Sport", "Honored Master of Sport", "Distinguished Master of Sport", and "FIAS Distinguished Master of Sport", and never "Honorable Master of Sport" which is what it says on his bloody diploma.

    I strongly suspect that Sonnon's MoS will turn out to be honorary.
    Last edited by Matt Phillips; 12/04/2009 3:15pm at .
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  7. sambosteve is offline
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    Stillness is death

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2009 2:50pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     NY Combat Sambo Style: combat sambo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Scott's posted diploma was granted from the ASF, (American Sambo Federation, today called the AASF) not the AFA.

    OK, hypothetically, if Sonnon did recieve the Honorable Master of Sport (regardless of what the word means) as he claims (which I am not prepared to say he did not yet - though that would make all the photoshopping/editing more confusing to say the least), I wonder why it took a year to start promoting himself as such, when Scott is the master self promoter. And ,why go through several variation of title before resulting in what is actually on his diploma in the first place?

    Also, even if he did get the HMoS from the ASF, there is no way if is from FIAS. Had FIAS granted it, the FIAS stamp and Org name would be on the cert. FIAS stamps everything and hands out passbooks, not paper certs.
    Last edited by sambosteve; 12/04/2009 3:00pm at .
    One of the best Bullshido investigations ever written: http://www.bullshido.org/David_Kujawski_Investigation

    "disgruntled ex student who couldn't hack training with Dave and his material and opted out (could be called pussied out) of training to go to Sambo" - Mor Sao
  8. Matt Phillips is offline
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    NOTE TO SELF - MOAR GRAPPLE - GET A NORMAL HAIR CUT - REPEAT

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2009 3:04pm

    supporting member
     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sambosteve View Post
    Scott's posted diploma was granted from the ASF, (American Sambo Federation, today called the AASF) not the AFA.
    Correct. My mistake.
    Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


    KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

    In De Janerio, in blackest night,
    Luta Livre flees the fight,
    Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
    Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!
  9. theotherserge is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/04/2009 3:15pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: sambo/crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To some degree, I could give a **** about the whole "Honorable/Distinguished/Merited" etc etc. The Russians who know better, if they even know who Sonnon is, just laugh about it. What truly bothers me about this is the chain of constant distortions leading up to claims of being a civilian counter-terrorist trainer. As well as doping up the documents to "prove it".

    What nerve. There are boys&girls whose lives haven't even gotten started and they're coming home in body bags. There are husbands and wives coming home missing limbs. People who are serving us and going through crap that we cannot fathom and he's working that angle for the sake of profit and ego what an asshole. Seriously! A selfish, indulgent asshole who is trying to repaint this as some kind of political attack.

    As Aaron pointed out, appropriating the Maltese Cross as your own symbol is just bad form and ungentleman-like. Same goes for using the Israeli Bat-IMO.

    Even though I train cops, I'm not about to use their symbols, symbols they've earned by serving us, for the sake of my own aggrandizement. I think it is in very poor taste. If you're not in the game, don't ever say that you are, it is a simple as that. **** me, I can't even get myself to wear a "FBI" ballcap or BDU's I feel so strongly about this. An old timer gave me a Coast Guard cap from his ship, I can't wear it. Are these values askew? Maybe I'm being overly sensitive about it...

    Train the people, help them, teach them what you know; and Sonnon has a lot that he can teach people, a quanity of good, even excellent material -which is why this is all the more frustrating to me. I love the clubbells material, I've done some of the CST routines and really liked them and I was just scratching the surface. He could just "phone it in" based on that alone, its a life's work that would be worth being proud of.

    And yet here we are, again with the self-generated image-complex but this time with the extra angle of using military, paramilitary and first-responders as his simulacrum. Scott: serve them as they might serve you, but don't go to the extreme of turning the credentials they earn by blood, sweat, risk and sacrifice into your own self-generated badge of honor. Your family doesn't ever have to be concerned that you might die in the line of duty. Show those families that do the proper respect and remove this bullshit.
    Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become totally ignorant.
    -Mentat Text Two (dicto)
  10. sambosteve is offline
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    Stillness is death

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2009 3:22pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     NY Combat Sambo Style: combat sambo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just to agree with Serge, this has never been about Scott's material and is why it is so frustrating. It has, for me been about the marketing and how he casts sambo in a poor light to try and make his shine brighter.
    One of the best Bullshido investigations ever written: http://www.bullshido.org/David_Kujawski_Investigation

    "disgruntled ex student who couldn't hack training with Dave and his material and opted out (could be called pussied out) of training to go to Sambo" - Mor Sao
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