Mr. Utah's Black Belt Mag letter

**Coach Josh** · Posted On: 11/29/2009 7:04pm

I was thinking the same thing. That the armbar was not on all the way. I think in their zealousness they jumped in too soon to "save" his arm. Being a muscle head he thought he was safe though.

Sad because still to this day guys show up in the gym and think that because they are not in immediate pain that they are safe from injury. When its only because of my kindness.

**Holy Moment** · Posted On: 11/29/2009 7:05pm

I found rebuttal letters written by both Pedro Sauer and the man who officiated the match. Both letters are on the same page:

http://books.google.com/books?id=EtI...age&q=&f=false

Essentially, they said Mr. Utah tapped.

***Omega Supreme*** · Posted On: 11/29/2009 7:20pm

Originally Posted by Coach Josh

I was thinking the same thing. That the armbar was not on all the way. I think in their zealousness they jumped in too soon to "save" his arm. Being a muscle head he thought he was safe though.

Sad because still to this day guys show up in the gym and think that because they are not in immediate pain that they are safe from injury. When its only because of my kindness.

That's why, when we had that other thread, I actually said that I would hyper extend the arm. They'll live and it'll serve to let other know, that if I let go, it's because I choose to.

**RandomTriangle** · Posted On: 11/30/2009 9:50pm

What i always loved about that video is that it seems like Mr. Utah is reaching to gouge at Pedro Saur's eyes when he gets arm barred..

**Monsieur** · Posted On: 11/30/2009 10:19pm

The armbar was clearly locked in. However, I can't say I saw Mr Utah tap.

***Omega Supreme*** · Posted On: 11/30/2009 10:34pm

Originally Posted by Monsieur

The armbar was clearly locked in. However, I can't say I saw Mr Utah tap.

and what makes you such an armbar expert. Truthfully speaking I was surprised that a BJJ blackbelt would throw on such a sloppy armbar.

**Monsieur** · Posted On: 12/01/2009 7:51am

Originally Posted by Omega the Merciless

and what makes you such an armbar expert.

You're right. It's the "what" that makes me an expert.

However, if you need to be an "armbar expert" to recognize one when you see one is really a questionmark for me.

**Don Gwinn** · Posted On: 12/01/2009 9:20am

I can see Omega's point. I just have a hard time believing Mr. Utah completely understood what was going on . . . but surely he knew that he had to tap or have his arm popped, and if he won't tap, surely it's better to pop the arm and make it clear.

But I say that with the hindsight of 17 years of intervening history. Honestly, I thought the bodybuilder did very well for 1994. I'm skeptical of his claim in his letter that he never had a single martial arts class--he looks like maybe that means that he didn't consider wrestling a martial art--but he did a good job of flowing and dealing with Sauer's sweeps and movement on the ground. That said, if he had zero experience in any martial art at all, it's entirely possible that the people on the scene saw the danger and he didn't--or even that he forgot how to submit in the moment.
And after all, no Gracie school would do anything shady, would they?

I thought it looked like he was going for a gouge when he got armbarred, too, and I even thought of making a "Deadly Eye Gouge < Armbar" picture out of that still frame. I figured eye gouging had been allowed, but he says in his letter that biting and eye gouges are the only prohibited techniques. He also claims to be blind, so maybe he was just feeling his way to some kind of hold on Sauer's head or trying to put his hand over Sauer's face. Neither seems like a good idea.

I dunno, maybe he just didn't know the terminology, but to think you've "twisted around" your opponent and now his armbar is neutralized makes me think you were about to get a rude awakening.

***Omega Supreme*** · Posted On: 12/01/2009 9:42am

Originally Posted by Monsieur

You're right. It's the "what" that makes me an expert.

However, if you need to be an "armbar expert" to recognize one when you see one is really a questionmark for me.

*sigh. My point is that you believe the armbar is sunk in. I personally think it was a sloppy armbar. We're looking at a shotty video and a bad angle against a strong individual who didn't know any better.

This is what I saw:
When the arm was sunk in the knees of Pedro were separated with the legs crossed not allowing for proper extension or control. I saw a surprised look when the ref jumped in, which means that Mr. Utah was even feeling the arm hyper extending. I've also seen enough "sunk in" armbars escaped from by inexperienced practitioners that I'm willing to give Utah the benefit of the doubt.

So like I said what makes everybody such an armbar expert that they're so sure that armbar was actually fully sunk in?

***jnp*** · Posted On: 12/01/2009 9:45am

Originally Posted by Monsieur

You're right. It's the "what" that makes me an expert.

However, if you need to be an "armbar expert" to recognize one when you see one is really a questionmark for me.

Reading comprehension. Omega is asking you how you know it's "locked in". Let's take a look at what you typed, shall we?

Originally Posted by Monsieur

The armbar was clearly locked in. However, I can't say I saw Mr Utah tap.

I'm not sure it was locked in either, and I have over eight year of experience in submission grappling. I know Omega has more experience than I do.

How much submission grappling experience do you have?

Edit: Damn it, beaten to the punch, again!