Bare fist, which knuckes and why?

**dwkfym** · Posted On: 11/27/2009 5:38pm

Re: finger muscle debate

Originally Posted by socratic

Smarty duds.

Settled

**TheMarquis** · Posted On: 11/27/2009 7:32pm

you know - TBH, this smells a little like another thread about using long distance kicks in a fight (EG head & foot) contact.

Now, I am not an expert striker not by a long shot - but I do have a few question that you might wish to ask yourself before committing to anything 'unorthodox' in the striking steaks.

firstly - what exactly are you wishing to achieve with a strike?

Now that might sound like a dumb-assed question (KTFO -duurr!) ... but when you think about it, there are tons of ways to strike using the hand that mean there will be no 'one size fits all solution'.

for example - are you trying to target a very specific area with a strike... a pressure point, to create sudden acceleration and inertia shock to the brain (KO), organ trauma, neural compression... the list of possibilities just gets longer and longer the more you think about what a well placed impact can do to a body (even something as "mundane" as boxing - so many have raised their guard, only to realise they have left some vital organ in the way of a good left/right hook...).

Is it a linear strike you wish to use (e.g the classic 'karate' punch) or something that works using rotary momentum (hooks for example)....

how close is your target?

is it V. close range (then grapple FFS! :D), mid-range or full stretch... distance is another factor that can (and does) dictate what strike you wish to use... it also makes some stikes pointless and others almost indespensable at that range.

will commiting to it leave me wide open?

Ok - so your left straight has the force of a freight train getting derailed at full speed into the side of a house. What if it didn't connect with their head and they're now responding with a well aimed upper-cut of their own?
Sometimes, a few well placed jabs can give a few distacting doinks whilst you get ready for an opening, where they have no time to avoid the train...

is it going to hurt me more than them?

a good hook to the side of the head can be a fight stopper... but the human skull is a very well made peice of bone... it houses the human jaw that can happily produce enough PSI pressure to remove fingers and other bits of protruding anatomy.

A bad one can trash your knuckles , or break a few of your own bones just as well.... fighting with a hand filled with dislocated knuckles or boken bones is not a good way to succeed.

So you see - even with a pretty basic view.... there's much to consider...

**MrGalt** · Posted On: 11/28/2009 3:48am

Originally Posted by Zaii

Also, when you said kumite were you referring to sparring in general or the 100 man, timed round test? I've heard the term kumite used in reference to both but I don't train kyokushin so I don't know either way.

Kumite is simply sparring. In fact even pre-scripted routines are technically called "kumite." The word doesn't imply any particular contact or intensity level. Many Kyokushin schools do friendly or even somewhat hostile kumite in the dojo with different rulesets from tournaments. Gloves may or may not be used. Head contact may or may not be permitted. Competitions are truly full-contact to knockout. Not class. Usually.

So we don't really have clarification on it because of the issue of semantics. I'm guessing that Mr. Tanuki has used chain punching in class where he feels safe enough to experiment a little with hard contact but doesn't really feel like he's ready to bring them to a full contact fight.

This of course begs a couple of questions:
Are his opponents, who I'm guessing are mostly his kohai, humoring him?

Is he correctly gauging the degree to which he's attenuating his chain punches? If he's not damaging his partners in class (and I'm assuming he's not) with chain punches, is he correct in assuming that he could simply chain punch harder and do more damage in full contact? He has pretty much stated explicitly that he hasn't tested this.

I've honestly wished I had some wing chun training not because I want to be a chunner but just because I'd love to personally test chain punches in knockdown karate. It would seem to be a perfect venue for it. Pure striking, so it doesn't become an anti-grapple argument. No gloves, so the typical chunner excuses about why they don't just win a boxing title and make some money are gone, and it's totally noncompliant. Unfortunately I don't know the chun, so if I tried chain punching I'd just be mimicking it, which would be the exact same thing as a chunner "proving" he can defend against a boxer by having another chunner pretend to be a boxer for the demo.

BTW, I do have a decade of training in Dillman nonsense, and I can assure you that I can't get any of that junk to work in a gloveless full contact environment.

***WhiteShark*** · Posted On: 11/28/2009 2:02pm

Why do the WC haters have to come out of the woodwork whenever anyone mentions punching with the last three knuckles? This thread wasn't even about WC.

What ever happened to: Individual > Training Method > Style ?

Plenty of well known posters myself included have met and sparred with WC Individuals that know how to fight. All of them cross train and use Training Methods other than wooden dummy forms. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being able to pull off chain punches in an alive environment. I don't find it much different from a triple jab.

Also, I use the First Three knuckles. I'm pretty sure this has to do with the way I do knuckle push-ups.

**socratic** · Posted On: 11/28/2009 9:24pm

You must have a fucked up hand if you can make contact with the ground with your index, middle and ring-finger knuckles at the same time. I've never broken a knuckle in my life and my index and middle finger knuckles are about the same height but the ring knuckle is significantly less protruding.

**dwkfym** · Posted On: 11/28/2009 9:35pm

I've seen a bunch of guys with flatter knuckles/fists. I have a very girly fist, so that would be very hard for me.

**socratic** · Posted On: 11/29/2009 1:07am

I'll be the first to admit I have girl hands.

**Whathappened** · Posted On: 11/29/2009 2:50am

My wrist and fist as small as a 5ft 3in Filipina woman.
Beat that.

**MMAMickey** · Posted On: 11/29/2009 3:14am

actually if your hands are 5'3 in height thats pretty big

**MrGalt** · Posted On: 11/29/2009 7:39am

Originally Posted by socratic

You must have a fucked up hand if you can make contact with the ground with your index, middle and ring-finger knuckles at the same time. I've never broken a knuckle in my life and my index and middle finger knuckles are about the same height but the ring knuckle is significantly less protruding.

I want to see that hand actually. If the first three line up why doesn't the fourth also?