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  1. Osaka peach is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/25/2009 6:20pm


     Style: Boxing/JKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Don Gwinn View Post
    Shamrock/Gracie 1 was pretty entertaining stuff. Shamrock/Gracie 2 was thirty minutes of Shamrock laying in Gracie's guard without much happening. Shamrock roughed up Gracie's face some, but there were no memorable attempts at submissions--neither man really tried to end the fight. This is the fight in which Shamrock's father shouted from cageside, "Ken, if you're just going to lay on him all night, why don't you give him a big kiss?"
    Legend has it that Gracie looked up at Shamrock and said, "No, please don't do that."

    That fight was the result of Shamrock knowing he didn't want to leave any openings for Gracie, and Gracie being confident that he could wear Shamrock down eventually. There was no wearing Shamrock down because he used relatively little energy, and neither man wanted to take any chances.
    That kind of thing happened quite a lot in the early days of mma, early pride is the best exemple. I'm pretty sure mma would have died if not for the re-start rule. In the early days there where the submission fighters either winning really fast because their opponent where clueless about groundfighting and when their opponent knew how to defend himself from submission then they where happy guarding for 45 minutes and get away without a bruise. That's not a really good attitude I think. If you worry so much about being punched then stick to straight submission fighting.:adios:
  2. Nefron is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/25/2009 6:28pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawarma View Post
    17 year old 3 month white belts acting high and mighty because Royce Gracie beat up a bunch of one-dimensional strikers in the early nineties, then acting all surprised when they go to a MMA gym and find people being fairly unimpressed with their guard-flopping tactics and crappy takedowns and simply punch them in the face.

    BJJ is a fantastic style, but it's not some sort of magic bullet that will instantly transform you into a badass because of the number of patches on your newly-bought gi.

    See also: Wing Chun Syndrome.
    Oh, that.Yeah, BJJ is getting really popular and attracts a lot of douchebags who think that they are the **** just for signing up for class."GET IN MAH GUARD111111" type of guys.
  3. Mr. Machette is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/25/2009 6:44pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: FMA, Ego Warrior

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The "rape choke" is VERY easy to break out of if you know what you're doing.

    And it doesn't take a lot of separate moves like some of these guys are saying.

    In fact, it just takes one.
  4. Don Gwinn is offline
    Don Gwinn's Avatar

    BJJ wins again!

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    Posted On:
    11/25/2009 6:54pm

    supporting member
     Style: Guns

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Osaka Peach, do you judge MMA striking by the early PRIDE and UFC events? No, right?
    *********************************************
  5. Hesperus is offline
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    it's all vanity

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    Posted On:
    11/25/2009 10:21pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kano-Gracie

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Probably, she's pretty dumb.
  6. wingchunx2z is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/25/2009 10:37pm


     Style: Wing Chun

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Osaka peach View Post
    I was watching this, let's say, very awful fight recently and there is something I don't really understand... in such a situation, where a BJJ fighter pulls guard for 30 minutes without actually doing anything but wait for a mistake that will never come, what would happen if the person on top would simply grab his throat with both hands and start choke him out? Is there a anwser for this in BJJ? As I recall the ruleset in UFC 5 allows anything but eye gouges and bitting, so why nobody ever tries this? I'm quite new to MMA so maybe my question is stupid but now I'm a bit clueless. :icon_pale

    I once considered taking up BJJ classes for self defence, but lately BJJ seems to have lost it's supremacy in MMA. Now that strikers know how to wrestle and avoid takedown, submissions doesn't seem to happen nearly as often as it used too. And I tought maybe BJJ could help in a rape scenario but I'm not too sure anymore, as physical strenght seems important in order to pull off submissions. Not to mention the guard is pretty useless in such a scenario...

    Back to the MMA subject, while I really aknowledge the usefulness of grappling, I also think pure grapplers are the most boring fighters around. The gracies might have great records but I've seen Royce, Renzo, Rickson and Royler fight and I'm simply not exited at all by that kind of fighting. At least now there's the re-start rule, so no more 45 minutes stalemates in guard position like in early pride.

    If I join the local MMA gym, I'll be the female chuck liddell :laughing6
    Wow lots of stuff here. firstly I had a match with a marine trained in MCMAP so he knew how to cancel some of my sweeps and control his base but he tried this. ALOT firstly from the guard I simply had to use my hips to push him away andit stretched him out so he coudn't get the leverage to choke me. Didnt even have to open my guard. In a mma fight I could do this adn then punch/elbow him as he's leanign over me with both hands tied up on my neck.

    Secondly, I asked ferret about it and he proptly showd me you can be arm triangled from in someones guard. Another time someone tried it in rolling I just extended them opened my guard and put one leg high on thier back and turned to "look in their ear" this is what you do when you jump shoulder it's cutting an angle on them. I noticed that the extended arms fell right into razor position and I got my razor very easily.

    In general, you don't really want to have both your arms striaght out when you're in my guard becasue I can control your distance to me. And your arms are extremely exposed.

    IMO As for learning BJJ it's ur call but for a rape defense scenario it's highly unlikely that you would end it by submitting him. what is liekly is he lays on top of you and you underhook escape or shrimp out from under him and then get up and run. Sweeps/expereince being on your back and not panicking is a valuable tool that will probably come into play. Although you;re wrong about subs BJJ is supposed to be for weak ppl to beat stronger by using leverage adn technique. You CAN beat a larger stronger untrained guy by having good jits technique with little strength.

    Of course this si also true in wing chun but it's based on overcoming the ahtletic gap by attacking vitals and damaging rather than altering position.
  7. wingchunx2z is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/25/2009 10:48pm


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Osaka peach View Post
    Well I usually asked my brother to wristlock me and I try to get free, and have never succeeded to date :icon_cry: while when I wristlock him, he just waves his arm and free himself like nothing :new_let_i
    Here's a wing chun soloution to that. Put on a boxing glove. then punch him int the face. If eh doesn't let go then do ti again. As long as he's holding on to your hand that's one hand that's not guarding his face.

    In wing chun theres a saying, when the way is free, go forward. That's the beauty of our art. In grappling if a move doesnt work you switch to another counter move. In wing chun if you resist my move I can just hit you.
  8. Suprore is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/25/2009 10:50pm


     Style: Bjj

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can punch people who try to do stupid **** with my wrists too, i didn't know it was an advanced wing chun technique.
  9. wingchunx2z is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/25/2009 10:54pm


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Suprore View Post
    I can punch people who try to do stupid **** with my wrists too, i didn't know it was an advanced wing chun technique.
    It's not. it's just a strategy that we seem to make use of more so than a pure grappler. I've seen alot of grappelrs and wrestlers wrench their hands out of a wrist control in a tie.

    If we're mma sparring I'll just hit them and take an opening.
  10. 265lbsfist is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/25/2009 11:08pm


     Style: BJJ/MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Osaka peach View Post
    That kind of thing happened quite a lot in the early days of mma, early pride is the best exemple. I'm pretty sure mma would have died if not for the re-start rule. In the early days there where the submission fighters either winning really fast because their opponent where clueless about groundfighting and when their opponent knew how to defend himself from submission then they where happy guarding for 45 minutes and get away without a bruise. That's not a really good attitude I think. If you worry so much about being punched then stick to straight submission fighting.:adios:
    Those early stalling fights were a result of GJJ's philosophy of taking no chances and letting your opponent make the first move and expose himself. It was derived from a streetfighting mentality where you were supposed to take as little risk as possible while waiting for your opponent to either make a mistake or gas. It's pretty taxing just lying on top of someone with a decent guard.

    Pretty boring but effective. It led to Helio and Carlson fighting bareknuckle fights for hours on end to win in the old days of vale tudo.

    That's why Rickson criticized Nog's technique since Nog was actually opening up his guard and actively going for subs instead of just waiting for the right oppourtunity. Rickson thought that was against the true meaning of GJJ where you took as little risk as possible. Of course they sought the top position where possible and when they gained it they rarely failed to capitalize but when people started to develop takedown defenses to thwart their takedowns the game changed.
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