Shamrock vs Gracie 2, something I'm not sure to understand...

**Osaka peach** · Posted On: 11/25/2009 3:25pm

I was watching this, let's say, very awful fight recently and there is something I don't really understand... in such a situation, where a BJJ fighter pulls guard for 30 minutes without actually doing anything but wait for a mistake that will never come, what would happen if the person on top would simply grab his throat with both hands and start choke him out? Is there a anwser for this in BJJ? As I recall the ruleset in UFC 5 allows anything but eye gouges and bitting, so why nobody ever tries this? I'm quite new to MMA so maybe my question is stupid but now I'm a bit clueless. :icon_pale

I once considered taking up BJJ classes for self defence, but lately BJJ seems to have lost it's supremacy in MMA. Now that strikers know how to wrestle and avoid takedown, submissions doesn't seem to happen nearly as often as it used too. And I tought maybe BJJ could help in a rape scenario but I'm not too sure anymore, as physical strenght seems important in order to pull off submissions. Not to mention the guard is pretty useless in such a scenario...

Back to the MMA subject, while I really aknowledge the usefulness of grappling, I also think pure grapplers are the most boring fighters around. The gracies might have great records but I've seen Royce, Renzo, Rickson and Royler fight and I'm simply not exited at all by that kind of fighting. At least now there's the re-start rule, so no more 45 minutes stalemates in guard position like in early pride.

If I join the local MMA gym, I'll be the female chuck liddell :laughing6

**ldbricen** · Posted On: 11/25/2009 3:35pm

Originally Posted by Osaka peach

... what would happen if the person on top would simply grab his throat with both hands and start choke him out? Is there a anwser for this in BJJ? ...

yeap, the person on top would leave themselves open for an armbar.
BTW, this is not really the appropriate sub-form for this post.

**Osaka peach** · Posted On: 11/25/2009 3:41pm

Originally Posted by ldbricen

yeap, the person on top would leave themselves open for an armbar.
BTW, this is not really the appropriate sub-form for this post.

Well, I'm talking about UFC and Pride, so why isn't it the right place for this post?

**Emevas** · Posted On: 11/25/2009 3:43pm

Because it's a technique question, not a sports question.

**Blue Negation** · Posted On: 11/25/2009 3:44pm

Originally Posted by Osaka peach

I was watching this, let's say, very awful fight recently and there is something I don't really understand... in such a situation, where a BJJ fighter pulls guard for 30 minutes without actually doing anything but wait for a mistake that will never come, what would happen if the person on top would simply grab his throat with both hands and start choke him out? Is there a anwser for this in BJJ? As I recall the ruleset in UFC 5 allows anything but eye gouges and bitting, so why nobody ever tries this? I'm quite new to MMA so maybe my question is stupid but now I'm a bit clueless. :icon_pale

Yes, the question is stupid. The choke in question (known colloquially as the "rape choke") is a fantastic way to get armbarred. Shamrock was too smart for that.

I once considered taking up BJJ classes for self defence, but lately BJJ seems to have lost it's supremacy in MMA. Now that strikers know how to wrestle and avoid takedown, submissions doesn't seem to happen nearly as often as it used too. And I tought maybe BJJ could help in a rape scenario but I'm not too sure anymore, as physical strenght seems important in order to pull off submissions. Not to mention the guard is pretty useless in such a scenario...

Are you a troll? There's no way you can be serious.

Just on the off chance that you somehow are...
For self-defense purposes, BJJ's takedown training is superior to no training at all. Therefore, you can still takedown untrained opponents, even without supplemental wrestling/sambo/judo training. From there, punch them in the face from mount until they turn away from you, then apply the rear choke. Easy.

BJJ is easily the best suited martial art for a "rape scenario". There is absolutely no disputing that BJJ best teaches someone how to best attack from the guard position. How would it be useless? Underhook the leg, trap the far arm, flower sweep to mount. Commence with face punching until they turn away, RNC. Or, armbar, dislocate arm, scissor sweep, dismount, kick them in the face, run away. Or, omoplata, dislocate shoulder while punching them in the back of the head. What more do you want? No other art goes nearly into as much detail on defending yourself while on your back. Why would it in any way be inferior for rape scenarios? What are you looking for? Fucking eye pokes and hair pulls? Try that while they choke you from inside your guard and you slowly go unconscious - OR - train BJJ and learn how to do techniques that provably work against someone much bigger than you.

And what the hell is with "submissions take strength"? So does walking, but that doesn't mean you need to be stronger than your opponent to submit them.

Pointed examples:
YouTube- Pedro Sauer vs. Mr. Utah Fight
YouTube- Emelianenko Fedor vs Hong Man Choi
YouTube- Minowaman vs Bob Sapp OLYMPIA DREAM 2009
YouTube- Genki Sudo vs Butter Bean

Back to the MMA subject, while I really aknowledge the usefulness of grappling, I also think pure grapplers are the most boring fighters around. The gracies might have great records but I've seen Royce, Renzo, Rickson and Royler fight and I'm simply not exited at all by that kind of fighting. At least now there's the re-start rule, so no more 45 minutes stalemates in guard position like in early pride.

If I join the local MMA gym, I'll be the female chuck liddell :laughing6

While it is completely up to you (and your coaches) how you develop as a fighter, I should point out that it's hard for lightweight fighters to develop knockout power a-la Chuck Liddell.

On the other hand, there aren't many heavyweight men in the entire world who could stand up to Mega Megu in a 1-v-1 fight:
YouTube- Mega Megu Highlight 'alive part'

**Osaka peach** · Posted On: 11/25/2009 4:00pm

Originally Posted by Blue Negation

Yes, the question is stupid. The choke in question (known colloquially as the "rape choke") is a fantastic way to get armbarred. Shamrock was too smart for that.
Are you a troll? There's no way you can be serious.

Just on the off chance that you somehow are...
For self-defense purposes, BJJ's takedown training is superior to no training at all. Therefore, you can still takedown untrained opponents, even without supplemental wrestling/sambo/judo training. From there, punch them in the face from mount until they turn away from you, then apply the rear choke. Easy.

BJJ is easily the best suited martial art for a "rape scenario". There is absolutely no disputing that BJJ best teaches someone how to best attack from the guard position. How would it be useless? Underhook the leg, trap the far arm, flower sweep to mount. Commence with face punching until they turn away, RNC. Or, armbar, dislocate arm, scissor sweep, dismount, kick them in the face, run away. Or, omoplata, dislocate shoulder while punching them in the back of the head. What more do you want? No other art goes nearly into as much detail on defending yourself while on your back. Why would it in any way be inferior for rape scenarios? What are you looking for? Fucking eye pokes and hair pulls? Try that while they choke you from inside your guard and you slowly go unconscious - OR - train BJJ and learn how to do techniques that provably work against someone much bigger than you.

And what the hell is with "submissions take strength"? So does walking, but that doesn't mean you need to be stronger than your opponent to submit them.

Pointed examples:
YouTube- Pedro Sauer vs. Mr. Utah Fight
YouTube- Emelianenko Fedor vs Hong Man Choi
YouTube- Minowaman vs Bob Sapp OLYMPIA DREAM 2009
YouTube- Genki Sudo vs Butter Bean

While it is completely up to you (and your coaches) how you develop as a fighter, I should point out that it's hard for lightweight fighters to develop knockout power a-la Chuck Liddell.

On the other hand, there aren't many heavyweight men in the entire world who could stand up to Mega Megu in a 1-v-1 fight:
YouTube- Mega Megu Highlight 'alive part'

I really don't get why people always bring up the troll thing whenever I ask a BJJ question, I am a newcomer, yes, but I'm serious when I ask questions. I think you should be a bit more respectful. I propably asked a stupid question, but everybody does at some point :sad4: I just don't understand everything that's going on when I watch MMA fights, especially on the ground. This kind of choke is something I'm afraid off, and so far my lack of strenght seems to be a big problem. It's not easy to do all those techniques when your assailant is 3 times stronger than you and can hold you in place only with brute strenght.

**Shawarma** · Posted On: 11/25/2009 4:04pm

Your opinion of BJJ is misinformed. Firstly, a serial-killer strangle is a horrible technique inasfar as fighting is concerned. It ties up both the attackers hands and places him off-balance, making it possible for the person defending to sweep him and take the mount if he knows what he's doing, even if the person is significantly larger.
And BJJ is easily the best martial art for fighting somebody much larger than you IF you can sucker your opponent into going to the ground. 99% of rapists want to take fights to the ground.

And the ugly truth is, if somebody wants to rape you, they will likely be significantly stronger and larger than you and they WILL take you down. This is why I consider submission grappling with an emphasis on guardplay to be the best martial art for women's self defense, along with common sense. Knowing how to use your guard is FANTASTIC in such a scenario.

I suggest going along to a BJJ class and watch what happens when a 220 pound newbie tries overpowering a 180 pound purple belt in a groundfight. It's an eye opener.

And straight BJJ is not dominant in MMA anymore...because everybody and their fucking dog trains BJJ-influenced groundfighting, so they KNOW how to defend submissions. It's not dominant because it's simply an essential part of the total package that is modern MMA that very few people can do without. It's one of the wheels on the MMA-Mobile.

Watch the early UFCs to see what happened when a scrawny little guy like Royce Gracie, who never was an especially good BJJ player, takes on a bunch of big dudes with zero ground grappling training. Clearly, he does not submit these guys because he's powerful. Another case would be when Minotauro submitted Bob Sapp by armbar, with Sapp outweighing him by about seventy pounds of muscle.

I'd say that the main weakness of BJJ are that A) it's often cultish and B) most BJJ players suck at takedowns and prefer jumping to guard. I'd advise crosstraining, but I only know (and suck at) a little judo, so I can't comment much on this.

Also, groundfighting is a lot of fun, fantastic exercise and reasonably easy on your body if you don't train with retards. I used to think it looked like boring fagness as well until I tried it. I would also advise you to take what your JKD instructor tells you about groundfighting with a bit of salt, as JKD people in my experience tend to be poor be poor groundfighters technically and philosophically.

I'd suggest not becoming a female Chuck Liddell. The mohawk and goatee wouldn't suit you.

**Suprore** · Posted On: 11/25/2009 4:13pm

Originally Posted by Osaka peach

It's not easy to do all those techniques when your assailant is 3 times stronger than you and can hold you in place only with brute strenght.

I weigh 130 pounds, i'm 5'6, i'm a male teenager who was kindof a skinny nerd when he started training and slowly getting into better shape.

I am not whatsoever afraid or someone bigger but less technical than me holding me down and rape choking me. That is nearly physically impossible. Punching my brains out standing or on the ground, maybe, but nobody with basic knowledge of groundfighting is going to be completely immobilized by a bigger, unskilled assailant. It's a lot harder to truly immobilize someone than you think -- you just haven't learned how to move while someone is holding parts of you down.

Take a few beginners bjj classes. All of your questions will be answered, and even if you find it isnt for you you'll have the benifit of being able to tell what's going on in mma much better.

**Osaka peach** · Posted On: 11/25/2009 4:19pm

Originally Posted by Shawarma

Your opinion of BJJ is misinformed. Firstly, a serial-killer strangle is a horrible technique inasfar as fighting is concerned. It ties up both the attackers hands and places him off-balance, making it possible for the person defending to sweep him and take the mount if he knows what he's doing, even if the person is significantly larger.
And BJJ is easily the best martial art for fighting somebody much larger than you IF you can sucker your opponent into going to the ground. 99% of rapists want to take fights to the ground.

And the ugly truth is, if somebody wants to rape you, they will likely be significantly stronger and larger than you and they WILL take you down. This is why I consider submission grappling with an emphasis on guardplay to be the best martial art for women's self defense, along with common sense. Knowing how to use your guard is FANTASTIC in such a scenario.

I suggest going along to a BJJ class and watch what happens when a 220 pound newbie tries overpowering a 180 pound purple belt in a groundfight. It's an eye opener.

And straight BJJ is not dominant in MMA anymore...because everybody and their fucking dog trains BJJ-influenced groundfighting, so they KNOW how to defend submissions. It's not dominant because it's simply an essential part of the total package that is modern MMA that very few people can do without. It's one of the wheels on the MMA-Mobile.

Watch the early UFCs to see what happened when a scrawny little guy like Royce Gracie, who never was an especially good BJJ player, takes on a bunch of big dudes with zero ground grappling training. Clearly, he does not submit these guys because he's powerful. Another case would be when Minotauro submitted Bob Sapp by armbar, with Sapp outweighing him by about seventy pounds of muscle.

I'd say that the main weakness of BJJ are that A) it's often cultish and B) most BJJ players suck at takedowns and prefer jumping to guard. I'd advise crosstraining, but I only know (and suck at) a little judo, so I can't comment much on this.

Also, groundfighting is a lot of fun, fantastic exercise and reasonably easy on your body if you don't train with retards. I used to think it looked like boring fagness as well until I tried it. I would also advise you to take what your JKD instructor tells you about groundfighting with a bit of salt, as JKD people in my experience tend to be poor be poor groundfighters technically and philosophically.

I'd suggest not becoming a female Chuck Liddell. The mohawk and goatee wouldn't suit you.

I really like your reply, it makes me realise how misguided I was about BJJ. I mean, only by watching those early prideFC I was under the impression that the anwer when you know BJJ and are afraid of getting hurt was to pull guard for an hour. I was a bit frustrated by this and began to wonder how such an attitude could do anything in a real situation. Thus I was quite happy to see Gary Goodrige send Oleg taktarov in the land of dreams before he could go for yet another stalemate. I really apologize for being such an ignorant person regarding groundwork. :sad4:

I probably should try it out to have a first account feel of BJJ, but there aren't many places teaching this in Quebec city.

pretty funny comment about liddell!

**Osaka peach** · Posted On: 11/25/2009 4:23pm

Originally Posted by Suprore

I weigh 130 pounds, i'm 5'6, i'm a male teenager who was kindof a skinny nerd when he started training and slowly getting into better shape.

I am not whatsoever afraid or someone bigger but less technical than me holding me down and rape choking me. That is nearly physically impossible. Punching my brains out standing or on the ground, maybe, but nobody with basic knowledge of groundfighting is going to be completely immobilized by a bigger, unskilled assailant. It's a lot harder to truly immobilize someone than you think -- you just haven't learned how to move while someone is holding parts of you down.

Take a few beginners bjj classes. All of your questions will be answered, and even if you find it isnt for you you'll have the benifit of being able to tell what's going on in mma much better.

I guess the reason why I can't get out of any immobilization is lack of technique then, but I still can't get out of a wristlock so I guess I have a long way to go.