TUF Heavyweights Finale - Dec. 5, 2009

**Wolf** · Posted On: 12/08/2009 9:08am

Originally Posted by Raging Monkey

Yes.

Horizontal, downward, upward, etc... are directions in relation to your own body. Not the ceiling or the floor.

Anyway, the reality is that the DQ was unjustified.

Points were docked for the illegal blow and then Hammil could not continue due to his shoulder, and said as much, not due to his face from those elbows. Therefore Jones should have gotten the W.

The problem is it wasn't stopped because of the shoulder. Mazzagatti saw the facial trauma and asked if he could continue. With no response he stopped it. After watching the instant replay it was determined said facial trauma was caused by the illegal blows. According the the rules intentional fouls ending a fight result in a DQ. The problem, that hasn't been brought up is, hamill obviously couldn't see him to read his lips as he asked if he could continue, and he of course couldn't hear him. Had he been able to see the question being asked he might have said, "My shoulder is f'ed, I can't continue"

**galois** · Posted On: 12/08/2009 9:16am

Originally Posted by Raging Monkey

Yes.

Horizontal, downward, upward, etc... are directions in relation to your own body. Not the ceiling or the floor.

In general it's much easier to define these directions using gravity.

**Cuchulain** · Posted On: 12/08/2009 9:18am

Originally Posted by Rudolph

The problem is it wasn't stopped because of the shoulder. Mazzagatti saw the facial trauma and asked if he could continue. With no response he stopped it. After watching the instant replay it was determined said facial trauma was caused by the illegal blows. According the the rules intentional fouls ending a fight result in a DQ. The problem, that hasn't been brought up is, hamill obviously couldn't see him to read his lips as he asked if he could continue, and he of course couldn't hear him. Had he been able to see the question being asked he might have said, "My shoulder is f'ed, I can't continue"

You do realise when a fighter can't see out of both eyes it's time to stop the fight?

**Wolf** · Posted On: 12/08/2009 9:43am

Originally Posted by Cuchulain

You do realise when a fighter can't see out of both eyes it's time to stop the fight?

exactly. I was just making the point that, that is why it was stopped, not because hamill said anything about his shoulder. It was quite obvious he couldn't see. I guess my point wasn't that clear.

**Cuchulain** · Posted On: 12/08/2009 10:16am

Originally Posted by Rudolph

exactly. I was just making the point that, that is why it was stopped, not because hamill said anything about his shoulder. It was quite obvious he couldn't see. I guess my point wasn't that clear.

Yeah as far as i'm aware the shoulder thing didn't come up until the post fight interview.

I think we need to remember another couple of things.

Hamil chose not to tap out despite the shoulder injury so it didn't end the fight.

The fight was stopped because he couldn't see therefore the shoulder injury is a moot point.

Also we have to remember that Matt Hamill's speech is difficult to understand at the best of times (hence him having subtitles) and after having been on the recieving end of the ground and pound he was, even more so. Had he tried to tell the referee about his shoulder I doubt he would have been understood.

**Rainsforth** · Posted On: 12/08/2009 12:10pm

Originally Posted by Cuchulain

Also we have to remember that Matt Hamill's speech is difficult to understand at the best of times (hence him having subtitles) and after having been on the recieving end of the ground and pound he was, even more so. Had he tried to tell the referee about his shoulder I doubt he would have been understood.

As another Deaf MMA practitioner, I'm saddened by the lack of logic in above statement. While it's true he might not be easily understood verbally, I wouldn't know. But from personal experience, when I get into a match with someone, I make sure to talk to the referee beforehand and say words such as "TAP OUT!" so at least I don't need to use the hand to tap out. It might be hard for Matt Hamill and myself to communicate an entire Shakespeare play, but we can at least muster out some kind of legible "I QUIT!".

**Cuchulain** · Posted On: 12/08/2009 12:28pm

Originally Posted by Rainsforth

As another Deaf MMA practitioner, I'm saddened by the lack of logic in above statement. While it's true he might not be easily understood verbally, I wouldn't know. But from personal experience, when I get into a match with someone, I make sure to talk to the referee beforehand and say words such as "TAP OUT!" so at least I don't need to use the hand to tap out. It might be hard for Matt Hamill and myself to communicate an entire Shakespeare play, but we can at least muster out some kind of legible "I QUIT!".

No offence intended, i'm in no way trying to belittle his disability. But I was also taking into account the amount of crowd noise, Hamill's state, and the fact that he couldn't actually see what was happening. So he had no idea if anyone was asking him anything.

**Rainsforth** · Posted On: 12/08/2009 12:52pm

Originally Posted by Cuchulain

No offence intended, i'm in no way trying to belittle his disability. But I was also taking into account the amount of crowd noise, Hamill's state, and the fact that he couldn't actually see what was happening. So he had no idea if anyone was asking him anything.

If Hamill wanted to tap out at any point, assuming he wasn't unconscious, he would have. I was just pointing out that tapping by hand isn't the only way a Deaf MMA can tap out. I doubt anyone was verbally asking him anything. However, the little shake on his chest would have meant the referee was checking up on him to see if he was still conscious. It's the Deaf substitute for "are you ok?". He was probably still conscious and assumed, like everyone else watching, that the fight ended by referee and he had lost.

**Petter** · Posted On: 12/08/2009 12:53pm

Originally Posted by JuHo Ho HOWNED

Source? Seriously, I think this is one of those things that SOUNDS like common sense, but really isn't. We're talking such small objects traveling such a short space, I doubt gravity has any bearing at all. I mean, it's not like we're talking about doing some pro wrestling elbow drop off the turnbuckle.

I don’t know whether the gravity argument holds any water or not, but it really isn’t this stupid, you know. If I sit in mount and drive an elbow down, I can drop much of my body weight into it. Gravity acts on the mass of my entire upper body dropping down a short distance to power the strike, not just the striking limb. Whether that’s enough to be significant is not for a striking incompetent like myself to say, but I doubt anyone is arguing that the effect of gravity on a falling arm is a determining factor.

**Cuchulain** · Posted On: 12/08/2009 1:08pm

Originally Posted by Rainsforth

If Hamill wanted to tap out at any point, assuming he wasn't unconscious, he would have. I was just pointing out that tapping by hand isn't the only way a Deaf MMA can tap out. I doubt anyone was verbally asking him anything.

Steve Mazzagatti verbally asked him if he was able to continue. When he recieved no answer he stopped the fight.