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  1. takedowned is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2009 2:11pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: kyokushin & teh judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok here's my two cents. Note that it's just my hypothesis, so don't jump on me.
    So, boxing,kickboxing and muay thai have always been trained for sport. So them being a sport means that there are two people in a ring and they both know that their purpose is to KO each other. That's why they both have their hands in some sort of guard, because they expect to get hit and that's the best hand position in order to protect themselves from the hit and counterattack,
    On the other hand TMA like Karate were developed as a means of self defense and became a sport later. Naturally people wouldn't walk around with their guard up, but have their hands on the sides of their body, or in their pockets. So you're wallking around or standing somewhere minding your own business and someone surprises you with a punch. Your hands are not in a guard position,so that's why if you have the time to react you would block from your hips or even a bit lower. Having done lots of kata and kihon trad. karatekas would have the muscle memory to do a jodan uchi uke or something and then counterattack and hopefully end the fight with one hit. Think of it as a one step drill :
    Tori gets in an attacking position (most often zenkutsu dachi) - in a real situation that would be the equivalent to walking towards you with a mean look and bad intent, assuming some position for a haymaker or a straight punch etc.
    Uke is stil standing in a natural stance (shizentai),hands to the sides.
    Tori attacks and steps forward.
    Uke steps back and blocks with one hand while chambering the other,then counterattacks,

    Um,,,yeah i hope i've pretty much made my point clear. If someone knows when was kamae (fighting stance) introduced in karate that would be useful.
    I remember reading something from Funakoshi, about how there's no guard in karate.
    But maybe it wasn't from Funakoshi cause he said "Kamae for beginners, shizentai for advanced" or something like that...
  2. maofas is offline
    maofas's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2009 3:11pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kenkojuku Karate, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by takedowned View Post
    But maybe it wasn't from Funakoshi cause he said "Kamae for beginners, shizentai for advanced" or something like that...
    AFAIK that precept was more "beginners get down in long/low stances and condition yourselves, advanced people take a more natural mobile stance".
  3. olschler is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 7:45pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Okinawa Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Hand that returns to the chamber has something in it.
  4. ciscodog is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 10:26pm


     Style: shorin ryu/bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    the chambering and using your reaction hand to pull back at the same time you punch is just a beginners technique used to teach them as one hand goes out to punch the other needs to be back to guard. The push/pull keeps one hand back to guard.
  5. pokeroo is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 11:03pm


     Style: mma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Since this thread has been necro'd I'll mention that I took karate briefly at the YMCA as a child. There's a lot I could mention about the experience, but from what the last 2 posters say:
    1 - Why do you have to retract to your hips to learn to retract a punch? My post was about chambering at the hip. If its not used in fighting why not retract it to a guard position near your face or shoulders?
    2 - Its supposed to teach you to retract your punch. When I was a child it was Wado Ryu I think at the Y. Seems to me it teaches you to leave your hand out after you punch, more than retracting it with the next punch.
    3 - So your punching and grabbing, and for some reason pulling what you grab to your hip?
  6. ciscodog is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2010 11:27pm


     Style: shorin ryu/bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    chambering at the hip for the punch enables the beginner to feel his/her arm slide against their body and straight out. The body serves as guide keeping the punch straight.
  7. helmutlvx is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2010 6:24pm


     Style: In transition

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There's a few reasons. I have to use Goju-ryu as my example, but some other schools think differently.

    A chambered punch is useful when you get closer than mid-range, granted the "chamber" exists for a fraction of a second. White belts are taught to keep the chamber because otherwise their elbow sticks out and they don't learn generate power with a straight punch using the hips.

    Other reason somebody mentioned earlier, it could be grabbing something.

    I didn't read the whole thread, but anybody who says a chambered punch is stronger than a boxing-style punch is an idiot, by the way.
  8. patfromlogan is offline
    patfromlogan's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2010 9:33pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually in Wado I was taught to chamber at the arm pit for practice and boxer stance for sparring. In Kyokushin I was taught to only do chambering in kata or when able to do full power punches (kinda like the Iceman on Tito). Sparring we held arms out.
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  9. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2010 10:01pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by pokeroo View Post
    3 - So your punching and grabbing, and for some reason pulling what you grab to your hip?
    Sure; it’s not really that mysterious. Example: I grab your left sleeve with my left hand and pull forward and down to pull you off balance; meanwhile I can punch with my other hand. It’s not, of course, about getting your hand to my hip, but if I want to pull you off balance—forward and down—that’s the direction it’ll go. I’m inclined to regard this as a pretty credible rationale for the “chambered” hand; not least because I am given to understand that hiki-te in fact means “pulling hand”.

    In the context of the Shotokan sparring I did, this worked pretty well for me. (It wasn’t very impressive “sparring”, though; no-contact punches, and sometimes I was admonished for pulling people’s arms too hard…)
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  10. helmutlvx is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2010 10:55pm


     Style: In transition

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fug View Post
    Actually in Wado I was taught to chamber at the arm pit for practice and boxer stance for sparring. In Kyokushin I was taught to only do chambering in kata or when able to do full power punches (kinda like the Iceman on Tito). Sparring we held arms out.
    Yeah, there's all kinds of **** like that. I haven't seen anybody silly enough start off kumite with two chambered fists. But there's probably at least one or two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petter
    Sure; it’s not really that mysterious. Example: I grab your left sleeve with my left hand and pull forward and down to pull you off balance; meanwhile I can punch with my other hand. It’s not, of course, about getting your hand to my hip, but if I want to pull you off balance—forward and down—that’s the direction it’ll go. I’m inclined to regard this as a pretty credible rationale for the “chambered” hand; not least because I am given to understand that hiki-te in fact means “pulling hand”.
    Ah, kuzushi. How lovely it is.
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