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  1. slideyfoot is offline
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    Artemis BJJ Co-Founder/Instructor

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    Posted On:
    11/24/2009 7:46pm

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     Artemis BJJ | Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in Bristol Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    Isn't it more like an instance of attempted (Socrates isn't up for it) seduction using wrestling as an opportunity, rather than an indication that wrestling was regarded as inherently sexual?
    As per the Gutenberg online text:

    I was ready to do in a moment whatever Socrates commanded: they may have escaped the observation of others, but I saw them. Now I fancied that he was seriously enamoured of my beauty, and I thought that I should therefore have a grand opportunity of hearing him tell what he knew, for I had a wonderful opinion of the attractions of my youth.

    In the prosecution of this design, when I next went to him, I sent away the attendant who usually accompanied me (I will confess the whole truth, and beg you to listen; and if I speak falsely, do you, Socrates, expose the falsehood). Well, he and I were alone together, and I thought that when there was nobody with us, I should hear him speak the language which lovers use to their loves when they are by themselves, and I was delighted. Nothing of the sort; he conversed as usual, and spent the day with me and then went away.

    Afterwards I challenged him to the palaestra; and he wrestled and closed with me several times when there was no one present; I fancied that I might succeed in this manner. Not a bit; I made no way with him.

    Lastly, as I had failed hitherto, I thought that I must take stronger measures and attack him boldly, and, as I had begun, not give him up, but see how matters stood between him and me.

    So I invited him to sup with me, just as if he were a fair youth, and I a designing lover. He was not easily persuaded to come; he did, however, after a while accept the invitation, and when he came the first time, he wanted to go away at once as soon as supper was over, and I had not the face to detain him.
    At least I'm assuming that's the relevant bit, from putting "wrestl" in the 'find' bit of Firefox.
  2. Beorn is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/24/2009 7:55pm


     Style: TKD, judo, MT noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by AlphaFoxtrot51 View Post
    Oh I was waiting for this to tryst into my little crevice of expertise. *pays the devil his due*

    Erotic grappling exists, and it's not a little side fetish such as pony play or bathroom fetishes. It's a rather large one. It's even seen in TV ads. I know plenty of women (and men) who are turned on by watching two guys (or girls) go at it on the mat. I know a plethora of people who like being INVOLVED in erotic grappling. So while you, ignatzami, write this off as "fringe productions" and "they fit under the heading of if it exists, there is porn of it," the reality is it's more wide-spread than that. And the phrase "if it exists, there is porn of it," is true...but I think what you meant is that there's a fetish involving it.

    All of that being said, those who participate in the above activities do so under the rules of time and place. They aren't going to try to rip down your shorts and peg you while at the gym.
    Alphafoxtrot51, what I saw in that video, to me, does not constitute erotic grappling. That was horseplay. Ultimate surrender and its homosexual counterpart actually have some elements of real grappling. I understand the point you are trying to make, but at a certain point the comparison just becomes a little ridiculous. For example, if a girl and I are having sex with her on top, but I decide to be aggressive and roll her onto her back, did I just participate in erotic grappling? I don't think so, but I feel like you and especially the creator of this "documentary" would say I did. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with erotic grappling, and have seen ultimate surrender, it just isn't really my thing.

    Sex will always have power games, from spanking to choking to even something as simple as who is on top. I feel like these games are only sexual though because both parties are willing participants. Anyone who thinks that gay men would intentionally go into a grappling class with the intent to gain sexual pleasure from an unwilling participant is basically accusing gays of rape. That being said, dumbasses who claim that the dominance aspect inherent in combat sports, and especially grappling, is erotic in nature are mistaking causation and correlation. Just because sex and grappling both have aspects of dominance and power play in them does not mean that they are related any further than that. I just think it is so funny that this is even a topic of discussion, nobody would spout this dumb **** about muay thai, and the power play is just as evident there
  3. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Exasperated.

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    Posted On:
    11/24/2009 8:03pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    That being said, dumbasses who claim that the dominance aspect inherent in combat sports, and especially grappling, is erotic in nature are mistaking causation and correlation. Just because sex and grappling both have aspects of dominance and power play in them does not mean that they are related any further than that. I just think it is so funny that this is even a topic of discussion, nobody would spout this dumb **** about muay thai, and the power play is just as evident there
    Excellent post.
  4. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/24/2009 8:04pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To anyone with doubts, this is real wrestling.
    I fail to see anything homoerotic about this.

    The Fine Sport of Wrastling - Clips - South Park Studios

    What You Mean it Ain't Real? - Clips - South Park Studios
    =================
    Kama Sutra blue belt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    I used to **** guys like you in prison.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Ape View Post
    Dude I kill people for a fucking living.

    Dipshit
  5. AlphaFoxtrot51 is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/24/2009 8:44pm


     Style: Sambo n3wb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Alphafoxtrot51, what I saw in that video, to me, does not constitute erotic grappling. That was horseplay. Ultimate surrender and its homosexual counterpart actually have some elements of real grappling. I understand the point you are trying to make, but at a certain point the comparison just becomes a little ridiculous. For example, if a girl and I are having sex with her on top, but I decide to be aggressive and roll her onto her back, did I just participate in erotic grappling? I don't think so, but I feel like you and especially the creator of this "documentary" would say I did. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with erotic grappling, and have seen ultimate surrender, it just isn't really my thing.
    To you it doesn't constitute erotic grappling. But what I gather from your response, is that you view it that way because there's no sex on the screen. That being said, there were plenty of sexual references in the ad. Yes, Ultimate Surrender and Naked Kombat have elements of grappling. But erotic wrestling/grappling don't have to involve sex. It can just be the exchange. One person wants to submit while the other person wants to dominate. It can be anything from no resistance to full resistance. Kink doesn't have to involve sex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Sex will always have power games, from spanking to choking to even something as simple as who is on top. I feel like these games are only sexual though because both parties are willing participants. Anyone who thinks that gay men would intentionally go into a grappling class with the intent to gain sexual pleasure from an unwilling participant is basically accusing gays of rape. That being said, dumbasses who claim that the dominance aspect inherent in combat sports, and especially grappling, is erotic in nature are mistaking causation and correlation. Just because sex and grappling both have aspects of dominance and power play in them does not mean that they are related any further than that. I just think it is so funny that this is even a topic of discussion, nobody would spout this dumb **** about muay thai, and the power play is just as evident there
    Again...kink doesn't have to involve sex. That being said, I'll also refer to my previous posts stating that those who partake in that fetish do so with consent, and reserve that activity in the privacy of their own home, or at events where it is welcome.
    Last edited by AlphaFoxtrot51; 11/24/2009 8:51pm at .
    :911flag: If you are lost, I will find you. If you are wounded, I will carry you. If you are pinned, I will cover you. If you are killed, I will recover and remember you. If you trespass against me, my countrymen, or my loved ones...I will kill you.

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  6. battlefields is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/24/2009 10:22pm

    forum leader
     Style: BJJ/ MMA/ MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    Go to a yoga class, declare that you are straight, and see what happens. I'm pretty sure you would not be asked to leave at all.

    Did you think I meant that doing yoga is done by gay men? It was not my intention and in context it would be very difficult to come to that conclusion. However, you are rivington.

    I was saying, if I declared to a predominately female yoga class that I was straight, they would be right to question my motives for attending the class. A guy who feels the need to let everyone know his preferred sexual taste is for females would be a little creepy around women, aft clad in tights, doing poses that could be deemed sexual if one were so inclined. I would question the motives of someone who came to BJJ and declared they were gay because of the same reason.

    If a gay guy came to class and it came to pass that I learnt of his sexual orientation through other means (other than an introductory declaration), or even if I never knew, it would not matter in the slightest. Even if he did get aroused, during or later, its his problem/ prerogative, not mine. If he started rubbing his dick on me in a sexual manner then there is a problem that would need addressing. But that would be equal to me dry humping a chick while she was attempting downward dog. I would be isolated very quickly.

    When I do go to my yoga class I don't need to declare my sexuality, they know I am straight due to my fiancee being with me, so I am slightly exonerated when I crack a fat looking at all the hot chicks in tights, lol.
  7. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    11/24/2009 10:28pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyOldGuy View Post
    My psychic powers tell me that there are alot of hypocrites posting in this thread who have ultimatesurrender on their most frequently visited sites list.

    I tried watching that one time and ended up yelling at the girls for doing **** wrong. It was annoying and frustrating and not at all erotic. Stupid porn concept.
  8. Whacker is offline
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    Pulling mount since '09

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    Posted On:
    11/24/2009 10:34pm


     Style: jits da variedade brasile

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington View Post
    Go to a yoga class, declare that you are straight, and see what happens. I'm pretty sure you would not be asked to leave at all.
    One's unitard patterns/color scheme would be the deciding factor in this, methinks.
  9. Hesperus is offline
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    it's all vanity

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    Posted On:
    11/24/2009 11:55pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kano-Gracie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The brilliance in Rivington's point is that you might get laid.

    And yes, grappling and sexytime have stuff in common, but so does playing tag and being chased by bears.
  10. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/25/2009 12:11am

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     Style: Taijiquan/Shuai-Chiao/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by battlefields View Post
    Did you think I meant that doing yoga is done by gay men? It was not my intention and in context it would be very difficult to come to that conclusion. However, you are rivington.
    Wow, so basically you ask me if I had some stupid reading of your comment, then pout (like an infant) as if I did.

    No, I didn't think you meant that.

    I was saying, if I declared to a predominately female yoga class that I was straight, they would be right to question my motives for attending the class.
    Hilariously, you DIDN'T say that. You only now mention "predominately female" and moved from you being "pretty sure" you'd be asked to leave to now simply saying that they would be right to question your motives (not even that they would question your motives, much less ask you to leave).

    Anyway, my point remains: go to a yoga class, say that you are straight, and come back here and report whether or not you are asked to leave. Don't change your argument midstream and pretend you were saying something you weren't—just put your money where your mouth is.


    Here's my special supposition: you won't be asked to leave. People are very very used to straight men being straight and declaring themselves to be straight especially in situations where performing masculinity might be problematic. Groups of women especially often adapt to straight male behavior, even somewhat inappropriate behavior easily. (Not that saying, "I'm straight" is inappropriate—for the most part, people assume that the people they meet are straight, since most people are.)


    Just don't change your argument again.
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