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  1. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    11/24/2009 6:08pm

    Join us... or die
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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyOldGuy View Post
    Historically, the connection is kindof alot closer than that, going all the way back to the greeks.
    Actually, I can't recall any specific instance of sexualised wrestling in Greek art or literature, unless someone cares to correct me?

    Because if you're just assuming they did sexy wrestling because they were gay and wrestled... You can probably see where I'm going with this.
  2. Hiro Protagonist is offline
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    Has entered Barovia...

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    Posted On:
    11/24/2009 6:17pm

    supporting member
     

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    My NSFW thoughts on the matter:

    Spoiler:
  3. Razor_Zedge is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/24/2009 6:31pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by UpaLumpa View Post
    After some of the threads Annatrocity and Kidspatula have posted I really doubt anyone would be that surprised. I think most simply take issue with the apparent attempt to tie homoeroticism in with why people might take part in grappling.
    This. Someone watching grappling or grapplers and finding it arousing is somewhat immaterial. There are people touching each other (Someone's bound to be aroused by that) and there's a power struggle (again, of course someone somewhere is going to be aroused watching that). That's a big leap from saying that there's something inherently erotic about grappling itself or that people have libidinous reasons for grappling.

    From the end of the video in the OP:
    "Inherently, by nature, the domination struggle among men is, and always will be closely linked to our libidos; it's what makes us men."

    I wish he'd actually address these things rather than just directing people at the movie. It'd be interesting to see where he's coming from.
  4. HappyOldGuy is offline
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    Slipping coal into stockings with a little sumptin for mom.

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    Posted On:
    11/24/2009 6:33pm


     Style: Rehab Fu

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    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    Actually, I can't recall any specific instance of sexualised wrestling in Greek art or literature, unless someone cares to correct me?
    There is mention in Plato's symposium of seduction through wrestling in the gymnasium, and much of the youth adoration stuff centered around the gym.
  5. slideyfoot is offline
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    Artemis BJJ Co-Founder/Instructor

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    Posted On:
    11/24/2009 6:54pm

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     Artemis BJJ | Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in Bristol Style: BJJ

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    This discussion reminds me of that thread I started four years ago, which gave me the chance to quote this:

    Quote Originally Posted by 'Articulate Flesh: Male Homo-Eroticism and Modern Poetry', Gregory Woods, (London; New Haven: Yale University Press, 1987), p72
    Wrestling is a ‘safe’ activity, in both life and art, bearing none of the weight of the taboo against homosexual intercourse. As such, wrestling can be used as a cover for sex. The one is, merely, an acceptable version of the other. There is a tradition, by which two supposedly heterosexual buddies may fight each other and in the heat of the contest, somehow, switch their athletic focus from limbs to groin. They may reach orgasm together, without in any way exchanging their roles of heterosexual buddies for those of homosexual lovers. After all, combat is combat. Wrestling is, therefore, the heterosexually acceptable form of homosexual foreplay. Semen be showered off men’s bellies afterward, as if it were, merely, a wetter kind of sweat. For these reasons, fellatio and anal intercourse, those infallible signs of homosexual passion, rarely have a place in the gymnasia of heterosexual homosexuality. Clinch and hold take technical precedence. Intercrural and intercorporal convulsions, since they do not involve the entry of one man by the other, are permitted; as is mutual masturbation, by virtue of its use of that unquestionably virile weapon, the clenched fist. Kissing, of course, is against the rules...
    It still strikes me as a little excessive (I continue to rather doubt it is common for wrestlers to ejaculate on eachother in the course of training), but possibly relevant to this thread.
  6. AlphaFoxtrot51 is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/24/2009 7:12pm


     Style: Sambo n3wb

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    Oh I was waiting for this to tryst into my little crevice of expertise. *pays the devil his due*

    Erotic grappling exists, and it's not a little side fetish such as pony play or bathroom fetishes. It's a rather large one. It's even seen in TV ads. I know plenty of women (and men) who are turned on by watching two guys (or girls) go at it on the mat. I know a plethora of people who like being INVOLVED in erotic grappling. So while you, ignatzami, write this off as "fringe productions" and "they fit under the heading of if it exists, there is porn of it," the reality is it's more wide-spread than that. And the phrase "if it exists, there is porn of it," is true...but I think what you meant is that there's a fetish involving it.

    All of that being said, those who participate in the above activities do so under the rules of time and place. They aren't going to try to rip down your shorts and peg you while at the gym.
    :911flag: If you are lost, I will find you. If you are wounded, I will carry you. If you are pinned, I will cover you. If you are killed, I will recover and remember you. If you trespass against me, my countrymen, or my loved ones...I will kill you.

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  7. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    11/24/2009 7:27pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyOldGuy View Post
    There is mention in Plato's symposium of seduction through wrestling in the gymnasium
    Fair play, had to look it up. Isn't it more like an instance of attempted (Socrates isn't up for it) seduction using wrestling as an opportunity, rather than an indication that wrestling was regarded as inherently sexual?

    The next thing they do is have dinner together, doesn't mean Plato thinks eating is all about man-love.
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyOldGuy View Post
    and much of the youth adoration stuff centered around the gym.
    Not quite the same thing.
  8. Rivington is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/24/2009 7:40pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    Fair play, had to look it up. Isn't it more like an instance of attempted (Socrates isn't up for it) seduction using wrestling as an opportunity, rather than an indication that wrestling was regarded as inherently sexual?

    The next thing they do is have dinner together, doesn't mean Plato thinks eating is all about man-love.
    People go to movies on dates too, and also go to movies for not-dates.

    However, if you read a book in which a man asked a woman to a movie, it would not need be explained that it would be a date and for at least for one the parties an expression of romantic/sexual interest. (Indeed, if it were not a date, that would need explaining.)

    Same with the Plato bit, which is only a singular example. Athletic settings were the place in ancient Greece for (generally) older men to approach (generally) younger men, and of course sometimes the opposite occurred as well.

    Another quick example, from The Wasps: Though overladen with success and honours more than any of your poets, indeed despite all his glory, he does not yet believe he has attained his goal; his heart is not swollen with pride and he does not seek to seduce the young folk in the wrestling school.

    That was Aristophanes writing about himself, and comparing himself (favorably) to the common celebrated man who of course always puffed himself up and who could often be found hanging out at wrestling practice looking to get some greased boy-ass for lunch.

    It would be easy to fill the thread with more examples of references to men going to wrestling schools to find sex partners.
  9. battlefields is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/24/2009 7:42pm

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     Style: BJJ/ MMA/ MT

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    I'll roll with anyone, if I found out later a guy was gay, it wouldn't matter. The only time I could see it being an issue would be if a guy walked in to my gym and declared he is gay. I would wonder about his motives same as the women would wonder about my motives if I walked into a yoga class and declared I was straight. I'm pretty sure I'd be asked to leave as well.
  10. Rivington is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/24/2009 7:44pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by battlefields View Post
    I would wonder about his motives same as the women would wonder about my motives if I walked into a yoga class and declared I was straight. I'm pretty sure I'd be asked to leave as well.
    Go to a yoga class, declare that you are straight, and see what happens. I'm pretty sure you would not be asked to leave at all.
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