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  1. JudOWNED is offline
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    北斗十字固拳

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2009 6:46pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by willaume View Post
    hello is that not in Judo as practiced now?
    that was the rules i refered to http://www.judoinfo.com/rules.htm

    phil
    Yes, the 25 seconds is the current rule. Didn't realize you were referring to the original contest rules.
  2. JudOWNED is offline
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    北斗十字固拳

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    Posted On:
    12/10/2009 6:54pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post
    lol The blatant difference in the intent of the attackers in that video is ridiculous! As also is the complete lack of any actual "grappling" by the defender in the first video. Leaning on your opponent while vagualy hugging him =/= grappling.
  3. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/11/2009 8:39am


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Just Guess View Post
    While it may seem anal from an outside point of view, the reason for differentiating all the different throws does make sense. They all use different mechanics even if the differences are sometimes subtle.
    Having practiced first Aikido and now Judo for many moons, I'm familiar with the argument.

    I'm just not buying it. :)

    You can call ippon seoinage a "hand throw" all you want but the fact is that the hand is just a way of controlling uke's shoulders. If you don't rotate your body and take his hips out with your hips, boosting him over your center, you ain't throwing seo.

    Now, I fully realize that this argument quickly turns into a holy war and I'm not up for that. When I'm on the mat, doing Judo, I don't argue the point because, well, it'd be disrespectful and, frankly, I'm there to do Judo not yammer on about how smart I am or how the Japanese are anal about naming every stinking subtle variation. But the simple fact is, the basic mechanics are the same across a broad range of throws with different names.

    If you wanna say different, then OK. I've had my say.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  4. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/11/2009 10:46am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    IMO going down accidentally is even more likely under battle conditions (uneven terrain, multiple opponents etc.)
    yes I think so as well.
    that plus the knave throws (knave=young knight) plus if there is a battle we will have some form of amour (ringeck is a "knight" fencing book) lead me to beleive that what you have learned as kid and the armoured ground fighting was kind of deemed enough.

    if i remember well there i think the main scott leader was killed after he had fallen (i think it was at Otterburn .....)
    phil
  5. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/11/2009 10:47am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    Having practiced first Aikido and now Judo for many moons, I'm familiar with the argument.

    I'm just not buying it. :)

    You can call ippon seoinage a "hand throw" all you want but the fact is that the hand is just a way of controlling uke's shoulders. If you don't rotate your body and take his hips out with your hips, boosting him over your center, you ain't throwing seo.

    Now, I fully realize that this argument quickly turns into a holy war and I'm not up for that. When I'm on the mat, doing Judo, I don't argue the point because, well, it'd be disrespectful and, frankly, I'm there to do Judo not yammer on about how smart I am or how the Japanese are anal about naming every stinking subtle variation. But the simple fact is, the basic mechanics are the same across a broad range of throws with different names.

    If you wanna say different, then OK. I've had my say.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
    amen to that
  6. Just Guess is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/11/2009 11:08am


     Style: ukemi & tapping out

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    Having practiced first Aikido and now Judo for many moons, I'm familiar with the argument.

    I'm just not buying it. :)

    You can call ippon seoinage a "hand throw" all you want but the fact is that the hand is just a way of controlling uke's shoulders. If you don't rotate your body and take his hips out with your hips, boosting him over your center, you ain't throwing seo.

    Now, I fully realize that this argument quickly turns into a holy war and I'm not up for that. When I'm on the mat, doing Judo, I don't argue the point because, well, it'd be disrespectful and, frankly, I'm there to do Judo not yammer on about how smart I am or how the Japanese are anal about naming every stinking subtle variation. But the simple fact is, the basic mechanics are the same across a broad range of throws with different names.

    If you wanna say different, then OK. I've had my say.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
    While I would love to continue arguing the point, this isn't the place and would just be rude.
  7. Mordschlag is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/11/2009 1:51pm


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SBG-ape View Post
    I hate that video. There are real reasons not to go to the ground against multiple opponents or against armed opponents, but that is a cheap straw-man propaganda video & its inclusion cheapens the arguments being made.

    The fact is that all the historical dagger defenses rely on grappling in that they grip & control the weapon arm.
    Quote Originally Posted by JuHo Ho HOWNED View Post
    lol The blatant difference in the intent of the attackers in that video is ridiculous! As also is the complete lack of any actual "grappling" by the defender in the first video. Leaning on your opponent while vagualy hugging him =/= grappling.
    Fair points. Does anyone have any good experiences with grappling or disarming a dagger-armed person that maybe could shed some light on this discussion?
  8. SBG-ape is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/11/2009 2:34pm


     Style: Jiu-jitsu & HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The fight books show some good stuff in this regard, although there is definitely a range of techniques; from the simple & high percentage to the unlikely & impressive.

    The priority is always to gain control of the weapon arm, which is to say grabbing/grappling it.

    For a stab from above a good, simple, move is this one:



    When the stab comes you catch the forearm of you attacker with your forearm or the ridge of your hand, you then grasp the knife hand, letting your grip slide to the wrist holding the knife. That's the really important part & you should drill that first.

    Once you've got that down there are a variety of cool moves from there. The specific finish shown here is grasping the attackers throat & stepping behind his leg on the dagger side like an Osoto-gari in Judo. A detail I've found important with this is that if you extend your arm to catch the throat it gives your opponent a chance to pummel & work to counter you. Instead, keep your arm close to your chest & step in so that you land your forearm on the middle of his chest. From there slide your hand up to his neck/chin & push back while stepping out toward the arm you've capture.
    Last edited by SBG-ape; 12/11/2009 2:46pm at .
  9. SBG-ape is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/11/2009 2:41pm


     Style: Jiu-jitsu & HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For a stab from Below, I like Karl Tanswell's knife defense material. It's modern & differs in some ways from what we see in the fight books, but it can be learned very quickly, it makes a definite positive change in terms of how often you get stabbed in training & how hard the pokes land. The central strategy is also present in the manuals, although the fight books include a good deal more then what Tanswell shows. Another nice thing about the material is that he goes into detail about how to get things done against resistance & when things go wrong, something that is sometimes missing from books.

    STAB workshop in Denmark
    Last edited by SBG-ape; 12/11/2009 2:48pm at .
  10. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2009 9:30am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordschlag View Post
    Fair points. Does anyone have any good experiences with grappling or disarming a dagger-armed person that maybe could shed some light on this discussion?
    hello
    Experience is a big word, but I have been taught some open hand against weapon. (air force, aikido, sd seminar, sparing and all that)
    All the technique that I think works converges toward a set of generic principles.
    For exemple lots of disarm from meyer or the goliath are the same as in aiki. The technique described by SGB is very similar to tenchi nague and the vid from sgb-abe is really nothing more a variant on rokkio.

    Neutralisation of the weapon arm is one and a degree of control of his body so that regaining control of his weapon or striking throwing is not that effective.

    On thing that I think medieval manuscript have and is not that explicit in modern literature, is a generic start up to a series of technique.
    For example lignitzer dagger takes care very nicely of modification of the strike in mid course with the two techniques for the over hand and underhand strike for am given grip. That is due to the extreme facility to flow from one technique to the other.

    Take the 1st ringed an swert
    YouTube- 1st ringem am swert
    I just have done one vid on the hip throw, but you can see that the same set up can lead to a more aiki o toasi, shokumen irimi nague or any variation between ude gatame, rokki ikkio. (Basically the same arm lock I do in the 3rd wrestling bit on the 3 wrestling video) or even jige garami koshy.

    For me the real trick to make all that work reliably is develop the fight as if you were fencing that being said any other guy with experience will give you a different explanation. There is so many way to explain the same thing from different angles and not to see the forest for the tree.
    And the comment about judo and some aikido few post above are a good example. It is not so mush a matter of absolute truth but more of how each of us see thing.
    You can see the common points or the difference neither is right or wrong.

    Phil
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