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  1. wiltz999 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2009 11:01pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    ground-fighting ?

    did wrestling in the middle ages involve ground-fighting ? supposidly meister Ott had teachings on it but i can't find any info.
  2. SBG-ape is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/20/2009 1:30am


     Style: Jiu-jitsu & HEMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Medieval wrestling texts do talk about unterhalten (holding down) techniques, but it's not a major focus of the art.

    When unterhalten was used in kampfringen (combat wrestling) it was usually so that the top man had a chance to use his dagger.

    My own guess is that, because killing someone with a dagger was a swifter process then winning a fight by ground & pound or submission, kampfringen pinning strategies didn't need to be as sophisticated as what we see in modern MMA, Jiu-jitsu, wrestling, etc.

    It's unclear if the common form of sport grappling was to the takedown (like some Chinese wrestling styles) or to the pin (like greco-roman, freestyle & folkstyle wrestling). It seems unlikely that suck contests were to submission however it's possible that joint locks were used to secure turnovers & pins (like in early catch wrestling).
  3. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/20/2009 1:31am

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's been a while since I looked into this, but AFAIK competitive (recreational) wrestling in Medieval/Renaissance Europe was typically fought to a clean throw rather than continued on the ground.

    Kampfringen ("combat wrestling") did include some ground fighting and these techniques are detailed in several of the German treatises. However, we're not looking at the complex ground-game that we'd associate with BJJ, etc. today.

    Historical German ground fighting was generally based on the idea of unterhalten ("holding down"), most especially a quick immobilizing lock intended to expose the enemy, who was typically wearing armor, to a thrust with a dagger. A few treatises (maybe only one - can't recall offhand) also deal with counters to underhalten, which tend to be leverage-based reversals.

    There are also scattered descriptions/illustrations of quite elaborate pins and submission holds executed by an unarmed/unarmored man against one or even two opponents - very reminiscent of the complex holds we'd associate with Aikijutsu or some styles of traditional jujutsu today.

    In general, though, while combat ground fighting was there, it doesn't appear to have been heavily emphasized - see http://www.thearma.org/essays/Wheres...dFighting.html , which also includes a number of Med./Ren kampfringen illustrations.
  4. RedCrane is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/20/2009 10:10am

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    I openly risk some correction here, with some analogizing (real word?), but I am thinking that the ground game of the medieval era could be likened to todays "ground and pound".

    Get'em down, hold'em down, kill'em.

    All the Best,

    Chris Amendola
  5. SBG-ape is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/20/2009 1:58pm


     Style: Jiu-jitsu & HEMA

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    That's not a totally unfair comparison.

    I look at it this way:

    If I'm pinning someone down in a submission match they can afford to be on bottom for quite a while as long as they're in good posture to avoid getting submitted, but they should still be working to escape.

    If someone is pinned down in an MMA match then they need to escape quickly because the longer they're on bottom, the more they're getting hit.

    On the medieval battlefield a pinned man is also being hit when he's down, but rather then absorbing punches he's being stabbed with a dagger. It likely takes far fewer stabs to kill a man then it takes punches to knock him out by ground & pound, so the window of escape for a person pinned down on a battlefield becomes infinitesimal.
  6. Sley is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/20/2009 5:31pm


     Style: BJJ

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    maybe its like Cornish wrestling?

    The objective of Cornish wrestling is to throw your opponent and make him land as flat as possible on his back. Three sticklers (referees) watch and control each bout whilst also recording down the score of points achieved in play. Four pins are located on the back of a wrestler, two at the back of each shoulder and two either side just above the buttocks. If a wrestler manages to throw his opponent flat onto his back, simultaneously scoring with all 4 pins they score four points in that single throw and this is called a "Back" to which the bout is then finished and the throwing wrestler is the winner. The sticklers will each raise their sticks when they perceive a Back has been achieved. If two sticklers raise their sticks but one does not a back is still awarded.
  7. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/20/2009 5:41pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Among others; actually, most traditional (living lineage) European wrestling styles, including Glima, Scottish backhold, Cumberland, etc. are fought to the first clean fall from standing. Lancashire rules were controversial back in the 19th century because they did allow ground-grappling.
  8. Sley is offline

    mr. Hobbes

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    Posted On:
    11/20/2009 6:14pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Among others; actually, most traditional (living lineage) European wrestling styles, including Glima, Scottish backhold, Cumberland, etc. are fought to the first clean fall from standing. Lancashire rules were controversial back in the 19th century because they did allow ground-grappling.
    I think its because in a melee being on the ground tended to get you trampled, thats probably why traditional MA's avoided ground grappling.
  9. RedCrane is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/20/2009 6:32pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sley View Post
    I think its because in a melee being on the ground tended to get you trampled, thats probably why traditional MA's avoided ground grappling.

    Sley,

    Not sure your intention with the usage of "traditional" in a WMA setting ("Asian" arts?, or do you mean "historical"?).

    Re-ground fighting: I think the value would depend on the context of combat. I think that in the history of many fighting systems, cultures etc., there's cases of "single combat", both "recreational" and "mortal", where holding someone down and finishing them off would be handy, because the "rules" kept one safe from multiple attackers.

    I would agree that systems for the "battlefield" (or some such designation) would clearly avoid ground fighting, but that other forms of combat, like "dueling", it might actually be prudent to ground out the enemy.

    All the Best,

    -Chris Amendola
  10. wiltz999 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/20/2009 8:18pm

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    did the fact that they(warriors in the middle ages) assumed that the opponent would be wearing armour or at least thick clothes cause them to neglect striking?
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