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  1. Just Guess is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2009 5:45am


     Style: ukemi & tapping out

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan View Post
    I think anyone could presume Kano would do Judo. Of course, he was the one who started monkeying around with the ruleset to foster an idea of 'purity' in the first place. Tailoring what is allowed in Shiai to favor a certain type of play (and, thus the training methodology) isn't exactly a new thing.
    Kano's concern was that too many Judoka were becoming more concerned about winning shiai as a competition rather than using it as the testing ground he intended it to be. One of the things he did was institute rules that limited newaza because he felt people were using it as a shortcut purely for success in shiai. Never the less, he didn't condemn kosen competitions because he didn't want Judo to lose its newaza specialists.

    Compare this to the IJF who are only concerned about promoting Judo as a sport. Their agenda isn't to promote good effective Judo, but to promote a popular sport.
  2. JudOWNED is offline
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    北斗十字固拳

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2009 10:06am

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Compare this to the IJF who are only concerned about promoting Judo as a sport. Their agenda isn't to promote good effective Judo, but to promote a popular sport.
    Well, though the IJF obviously has made statements about making shiai spectator friendly, guys like Resnick say that most of the rules are indeed meant to make people "stand up and fight," which is good effective Judo. Even this new rules is meant to stop people from diving low with half hearted kata guruma's just to keep from getting thrown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Resnick
    they want to stop people from diving in with no hope of finishing a throw. that's the main goal. there are A LOT of matte calls going on now becuase of people diving in for te-guruma without a prayer of making the throw work.

    People are also using craptacular kata-guruma attacks to avoid the fight. also causing more matte and wasted time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Resnick again
    Seriously, some of you are ridicilous. Judo is a SPORT in this context. Just the same as golf or bjj are. Thus, the rules will change from time to time. some you will like, others you will not.

    i am sorry, but you cannot tell me that people diving into crappy tegurma after crappy kata guruma is good for Judo. they are taking this route becuase in the sport they are protected and get the matte, plus the added bonus that their opponent had to react, at least a little bit, so they cannot get the false attack penalty.

    In other words, it is a sport strategy that is not based on anything else. so many of you want to say this rule change is bad for judo, how is that?? They are going to force people to stand-up and fight for a change, not dive to the ground and cover up.

    in wrestling the strategy works, somewhat against a crappy wrestler, becuase if you get the guy to his stomach you get points, but in Judo they MUST his their back and that makes this strategy ntohing more than a way to avoid a penalty. Heck, even in wrestling people wouldn't use this strategy much becuase the odds of success are just too slim.

    Judo is about standing up and throwing somebody. not diving in on a prayer. even the russians support this rule change.... i cannot possobly see how any of the people here, who are actually doing and learning judo, can have a major problem with having to use ashiwaza before diving.

    i find it pathetic that so many people complain about Judo's rules, especially fools like UNIFIED TEAM above. yet you know full well he couldn't hack his way through half of a decent Judo practice and would quit my adult beginning class before getting a green belt.

    Every sport has rules, stop bitching about the rules in a sport just becuase you cannot win.
    In fact, though I started the thread over there, the more I think about it, the more I think the new rules are pretty much a non-issue. Especially for someone at my level who is just concentrating on trying to do good Judo and become a good grappler and win some local tournies. I am not and never will be a world beater. Rules minutiae should not and do not concern me.

    Besides, I train at a small, but open minded club where we have BJJ guys coming in all the time and basically do our randori and rolling with non specific rulesets unless we are prepping for a contest.
  3. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/05/2009 3:14pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just Guess: Kano's also wrote significant text on how he thought was the essence of Judo being found in Taichi Waza. In other words, he had a bias and such rule changes was him trying to make Judo more 'pure'. Doesn't this sound like a familiar refrain about recent rule changes when looked upon this way?
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

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  4. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/05/2009 3:17pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also, everyone whining about people going belly down and stalling: How about you just suck it up and learn how to "crack the turtle's shell" quicker? :smile:
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
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  5. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/05/2009 3:33pm

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     Style: ^_^

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Because that's not the fucking point. It'd be like if BJJ suddenly stopped scoring points for sidemount and you had this phenomenom where people stopped defending guard passes because of it. Then you (top flight competitor and grappler you are) told us we need to work on transitioning faster to mount.

    **** you. You don't even do Judo.


    "The only important elements in any society
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  6. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/05/2009 3:56pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You may not like it but that's the Judo shiai rule. Tough luck, too bad - adapt or whine. Are you suggesting that being too good and fast in "cracking the turtle's shell" would be bad Judo or bad grappling?

    BTW, As I read the rules, BJJ actually doesn't score points for sidemount. Perhaps someone should start another org which gives points for it instead of just for passing the guard.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 12/05/2009 4:04pm at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
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  7. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/05/2009 4:12pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ... and, now that you mention it, what would be so wrong with a faster transition to mount? Would it be that you wouldn't get the extra 2 points for a 3 second pause and might lose if the match went to the time limit?
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
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  8. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/05/2009 5:29pm


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Are you sure?

    Considering 1936 Kano's letter to Koizumi, I have some doubts about that.

    "I have been asked by people of various sections as to the wisdom and possibility of Judo being introduced with other games and sports at the Olympic Games. My view on the matter, at present, is rather passive. If it be the desire of other member countries I have no objection. But I do not feel inclined to take any initiative. For one thing, Judo, in reality, is not a mere sport or game. I regard it as a principle of life, art and science. In fact it is a means for personal cultural attainment. Only one of the forms of Judo training, so-called Randori or free practice, can be classed as a form of sport. Certainly, to some extent, the same may be said of boxing and fencing, but today they are practised and conducted as sports. Then, the Olympic Games are so strongly flavoured with Nationalism that it is possible to be influenced by it and to develop 'Contest Judo,' a retrograde form as Ju Jutsu was before Kodokwan Judo was founded."

    Fulfilling His Duty as a Member: Jigoro Kano and the Japanese Bid for the 1940 Olympics. By Joseph R. Svinth
    Not 100%, no. (Curse you DCS!) But in 1938 (same year he died) he successfully petitioned for Japan's Olympic bid at the Cairo IOC meeting. Judo was to be an event so considering Kano's state of still being aliveness in his last moments he both pushed very hard for Japan to host the games and at the very least was not upset by Judo (before the war scratched the games) becoming an Olympic event.

    they want to stop people from diving in with no hope of finishing a throw. that's the main goal. there are A LOT of matte calls going on now becuase of people diving in for te-guruma without a prayer of making the throw work.
    Added time to take a person's back and not being so quick to draw on a matte might remedy this problem. Getting my back taken in randori from missed drop seio-nages taught me to be careful on setting up for 'dive throws'.
  9. ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/05/2009 5:49pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There's plenty of time allowed for newazza in IJF rules at the moment, in fact there isn't a time limit for newazza that I can find:

    e)
    When during Newaza there is no apparent progress.

    f)
    When one contestant regains a standing or semi-standing position from Newaza bearing his opponent on his back.

    g)
    When one contestant is in, or from Newaza regains, a standing position and lifts his opponent, who is lying on his back with his leg(s) around any part of the standing contestant, clear of the Tatami.
    That's not to say that newazza time isn't limited, the problems more subtle though and lies with the fact that man ref's can't recognise progression in newazza and that at the higher level the ref's are actively encouraged to discourage newazza, at least as I understand it.
  10. Just Guess is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2009 8:14pm


     Style: ukemi & tapping out

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan View Post
    Just Guess: Kano's also wrote significant text on how he thought was the essence of Judo being found in Taichi Waza. In other words, he had a bias and such rule changes was him trying to make Judo more 'pure'. Doesn't this sound like a familiar refrain about recent rule changes when looked upon this way?
    I don't think it's the same thing because the motivations are different. Kano was concerned that Judoka were becoming too concerned about shiai, which was leading to bad habits. The IJF is more concerned about making Judo shiai spectator friendly and maintaining brand identity.
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