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  1. Muerteds is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2009 7:10pm


     Style: Itinerant Wanderer

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh
    If you ippon someone then have them roll you over and get top position was it really an ippon?
    I truly wish it didn't seem to always score like that. I've done that a number of times in shiai, and it was called for the ippon. Of course, I was even choking a guy who got a good ippon and landed on top just because he left himself open to it. I'll be danged if I'll give up till they tell me to. Jujitsu habits die hard in judo competitions.
  2. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2009 7:13pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well Judo is just fine the way it is. Grab another human toss them to the ground with largely on the back with speed force and control then pin, armbar or choke the snot out of them after they hit the ground.

    That's how I train my guys I don't focus on rules and other bullshit. Fight from hajime to matte and don't quit. Dominate grips throws and newaza don't give the other guy a chance.

    Every time we do any of that we win matches.

    Look an Inoe's matches in the last Olympics. That was Judo at its purest and what every Judoka should be striving to achieve.

    If people spent less time bitching about what they can't do in Judo and focus on doing good Judo they would have more success. Its the same as a Pride guy coming into the UFC bitching about not being able to soccer kick.

    Train Judo for what it is. Get in a club that allows you to do newaza and the other fun stuff.

    If your too scared to compete then stay off the tournament circuit.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  3. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2009 7:20pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: 柔術

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post

    If your too scared to compete then stay off the tournament circuit.
    Or you know compete in Jiu-Jitsu / Submission Wrestling where "Attempt a throw-> fail -> Turtle -> Stall -> Standup" isn't the most common technique at the tournament.
  4. Blue Negation is offline

    Woke up in the mortuary

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2009 11:46pm


     Style: Judo, Sub wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by I crucified Jesus View Post
    Honestly, I think the issue with Judo Newaza could be solved by either labeling a turtle strategy without attempt to roll over or get back up as "stalling" with the appropriate penalty. Or consider Back Mount a "pin". If the other player gets both hooks in, its 25 seconds to get out or you lose by ippon.
    I still have not heard a good reason against penalizing turtling as stalling/negative Judo. I've asked on JudoForum, here, elsewhere. Apparently the consensus is that the onus is on the guy on top. For some reason. In a complete reversal of the definition of negative Judo while standing. I even read a Kodokan-freakin-hachidan bragging about how he's never been turned over while lying belly-to-the-mat... not exactly something I'd be proud of. And it seemed he thought this was a defense of the lack of negative Judo criteria for newaza, somehow.

    The biggest response I got was "But it would discourage going for throws, because you end up turtled if you fail in them!" ...Then attempt reversals from under turtle? Try sitting through for guard? Just don't imitate a tortoise...

    The back mount thing is good, too. Of course, it'd have to be "Top" back mount only. I'd say with or without hooks, though - same as tate shiho gatame.

    And of course, my favorite: bring back straight leglocks. No way anyone is pancaking on me when their ankles are dangling out there so prettily.

    But of course, this is wishful thinking and/or attempting to apply tachiwaza standards to newaza instead of treating newaza as an unfortunate necessity to differentiate Judo from Shuai Chiao.




    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh
    Until there is a rule set that incorporates the best from Judo Sambo and BJJ we will be stuck with these separate distinctions.
    Isn't that kind of what they are trying to do here? Even if it isn't a perfect match, why discourage any motions in that direction?

    I would love to compete in a ruleset like BJJ, but with Sambo's Total Victory for a strong throw where you remain standing. Or a Judo ruleset with higher ippon criteria and more than 5 seconds on the ground (sounds like this "freestyle..."). Or a Judo ruleset with straight leglocks allowed.

    I have the highest respect for you, Coach Josh. I'm just not seeing why your complaint isn't "they should make sure to differentiate themselves from mainstream Judo" rather than being displeased at "freestyle" Judo existing.
  5. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/04/2009 12:47am


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well Judo is just fine the way it is. Grab another human toss them to the ground with largely on the back with speed force and control then pin, armbar or choke the snot out of them after they hit the ground.
    Which is why the rules are always being mucked with...because it's perfect and needs to be more perfect.

    That's how I train my guys I don't focus on rules and other bullshit.
    Sounds familiar....hold on..

    Train Judo for what it is. Get in a club that allows you to do newaza and the other fun stuff.
    ...I remember now! It reminds of of what FSJ is trying to do!

    Every time we do any of that we win matches.
    It's nice to win things


    If people spent less time bitching about what they can't do in Judo and focus on doing good Judo they would have more success.
    -wha?


    If your too scared to compete then stay off the tournament circuit.
    Because only cowards think that the IJF ultimately is a negative force in Judo.


    Coach Josh, I also very much respect you and know that Judo is a huge part of your life. But that it upsets you so much that people are trying to create a separate vision for Judo beyond what the Judo version of the UN has decreed puzzles me. IJF style Judo still is one of the best MAs out there...but dissent and options are healthy for any organization or activity.
    Last edited by nightowl; 12/04/2009 12:57am at .
  6. creativo is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2009 6:31am


     Style: Judofitness

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If people spent less time bitching about what they can't do in Judo and focus on doing good Judo they would have more success. Its the same as a Pride guy coming into the UFC bitching about not being able to soccer kick.

    Train Judo for what it is. Get in a club that allows you to do newaza and the other fun stuff.
    That's about it IMHO. Judo IS NOT just competition, that's a part of the full package, if you want to compete using judo, you don't need a tailor-made judo-like organization just for your liking. Were it founded by Yamashita and his peers, outraged at the IJF, it would make sense or at least be worthy of debate, but this? It's just to bait tournament addicts.

    Many people think that different comp rules would make judo better or more fun for them, this is fine; but this wishing must not lead judo to end up like the karate guys (sorry karate guys!), who have like 200 federations for each style because teacher X thought that sweeps should be hard contact while Y said sweeps aren't in the spirit of karate.

    You can still learn good judo without worrying about ashi-gatame at your next tournament. You want 10 minutes newaza with leglocks? Go do another art, or become a japanese high school student and enroll in their club (hint, hint).

    We can still see high level players with great judo with the current ruleset, along with the more strenght-and-power ones. The aim is to have great judo players, to keep good judo in existence. If the current ruleset allows so, it's fine. If we only had Lesnar-type winners and teachers, then I'd be concerned, but it's not the case yet, and that's what they're trying to preserve.

    judo =/= wrestling =/= bjj =/= sub grappling
    Last edited by creativo; 12/04/2009 6:36am at .
  7. JudOWNED is offline
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    北斗十字固拳

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2009 7:51am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by I crucified Jesus View Post
    Or you know compete in Jiu-Jitsu / Submission Wrestling where "Attempt a throw-> fail -> Turtle -> Stall -> Standup" isn't the most common technique at the tournament.
    I don't know if this is meant to be a dig, or not, but it is true. In fact, Josh already said the same thing.

    If you are a Judoka and want to test your mettle in newaza then go to a BJJ tournament. Learn to deal with butt flopping and people jumping your back when you do a shitty throw.
  8. JudOWNED is offline
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    北斗十字固拳

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    Posted On:
    12/04/2009 7:55am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    Well Judo is just fine the way it is. Grab another human toss them to the ground with largely on the back with speed force and control then pin, armbar or choke the snot out of them after they hit the ground.

    That's how I train my guys I don't focus on rules and other bullshit. Fight from hajime to matte and don't quit. Dominate grips throws and newaza don't give the other guy a chance.

    Every time we do any of that we win matches.

    Look an Inoe's matches in the last Olympics. That was Judo at its purest and what every Judoka should be striving to achieve.

    If people spent less time bitching about what they can't do in Judo and focus on doing good Judo they would have more success. Its the same as a Pride guy coming into the UFC bitching about not being able to soccer kick.

    Train Judo for what it is. Get in a club that allows you to do newaza and the other fun stuff.

    If your too scared to compete then stay off the tournament circuit.
    Not to venerate high level players, or anything, but... I started a thread about the new IJF rules (which I disagree with) over on the UG. Joshua Resnick responded in a very similar way to Coach Josh here. He didn't like the rules either, but basically made the point to quit bitching and stand up and fight good Judo.
  9. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/04/2009 12:44pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for the support.

    The AAU is a non entity in the national Judo scene. The AAU had its chance to do the right thing for Judo and screwed it up.

    I also mean an international agreed upon rule set. Not one made up by a few guys in the AAU.

    Take what is happening in the BJJ scene as far as rules. They are having problems with competitors manipulating the heel hook rule to get a DQ. Guys will get put in a foot lock and then twist themselves to make it look like an illegal heel hook. This is a clear manipulation of the rules and will more than likely cause a change in the rules. Look at the original BJJ rules and the ones you have now. Why are there changes?

    Mainly it is due to the scope of competition that is happening these days. With so many matches happening people are looking for shortcuts and easier ways to win. They are missing out on the spirit of competition for the win. They do not care about the sport or art form they just want to win. Judo saw this 50 years ago when BJJ was just starting out.

    If everyone who entered a competition would compete in the truest since of the sport we would not need so many rules. The problem arises when people's perception of what is fair comes into question. Just because you think grabbing a hold of a person's belt is fair doesn't make it so. After years of competition people began to see the effects of this act and made a provision to regulate the action.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  10. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/04/2009 1:56pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Negation View Post
    I still have not heard a good reason against penalizing turtling as stalling/negative Judo.

    I asked an acquaintance of mine, Shiro Oishi (8th Dan Judo), about this once. As I understood his explanation, he said taking a back mount is a "great position, but for killing." He explained that, because of this, it was Jujitsu, not Judo. Thus, Judo rules do not penalize turtling up and gives no advantage to getting an opponent to turn over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    If everyone who entered a competition would compete in the truest since of the sport we would not need so many rules,
    Agreed.

    To compete in the truest sense is to pay homage to the the Latin root of the word: competere - to seek together.

    If ten people enter a competition with the intent to win, only one person wins.

    If ten people enter a competition with the intent "to seek together", then ten people win regardless of who ended up in first place.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
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