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  1. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2009 1:50pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    BJJ, and subgrappling tournaments are making money that is the big thing. Judo tournaments are losing ground and they are trying to make it up by implementing new rules outside of the current. In the US it is sad people can not appreciate Judo for what it is.
    I know I'm just whistling in the wind, but last time I checked Judo wasn't simply narrow adherence to a given competitive rule-sets. Rather those rule set is an example of one method for testing and improving your skills at Judo.

    Cart...horse...hell, you figure it out...
  2. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/02/2009 2:59pm

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     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Y'all are missing the point. Judo does not need a different rule set to compete under. There is the IJF rules for Judo competition that is done the world over. It is a standardized set that allows for fair competition across the board. There is no guessing what the rules are going to be for a given tournament.

    This is what makes a Judo tournament. Now if you change the rule set it is no longer a Judo tournament. You can call it a Judo tournament with modified rules but it is still not a Judo tournament. The reason I am saying this is because of the state championships, national championships, World Championships and the Olympics.

    There is a system in place to control who is a champion in each respective section. This is very very important to Judo. How many bullshit organizations are out there that claim to have national and world championships? Thousands.

    Judo has 1 world champion every 2 years in each weight division. This is huge when you look at the scope of it. The winner is the best Judo player out of 180+ countries that competed to qualify for the honor of representing their country in a World Championships.

    They did not show up that day and payed $100 to compete. They worked their ass off on the national tournament scene to make it on the international team and then competed against other countries to qualify the weight class for the country at the continental level. Then they can go to the worlds. I ain't even going to talk about the money that comes out of their pockets to do this.

    Now this Freestyle Judo has its world championships in Poduck, Wisconsin. The guy who wins it and puts down on his web page he is a Freestyle JUDO WORLD Champion. WTF do you think people will see?

    They will not know the difference between Freestyle Judo and Judo. They will not know that it was him and 2 other guys from Wisconsin competing for this title. All they will see is JUDO WORLD CHAMPION. Is this not what Bullshido is all about shining a light on illegitimate claims of martial arts mastery.

    I am not against them doing this style of tournament. What I am against is that they are using Judo in the title to promote the tournament and if they go on to call it a national or world championshiops. IDK what the solution to this is either. But what I do know is that it will lead to misinterpretation by less knowledgeable people.

    If you are a Judoka and want to test your mettle in newaza then go to a BJJ tournament. Learn to deal with butt flopping and people jumping your back when you do a shitty throw.

    I am all about revamping some rules in Judo do not get me wrong. I think a few things need to changed to make it better but I am not in a position to do such things. If the IFJ does not want to change it and more and more people leave Judo then they may be forced to do so. I am a firm believer you should work in the system to make change. There are many many people who are far more knowledgeable about the what goes on in Judo. While we may not agree Judo has been around a lot longer than any of us here and will remain for many more years.

    If you ippon someone then have them roll you over and get top position was it really an ippon?

    If you don't understand this you more than likely never will. It may be because you didn't compete in Judo at a higher level and understand just how hard it is to make it on the national team, hell even to crack the top ten in some weight divisions. Nor can you comprehend the honor it is to represent your country on such a scale.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  3. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/02/2009 11:47pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    This is what makes a Judo tournament. Now if you change the rule set it is no longer a Judo tournament. You can call it a Judo tournament with modified rules but it is still not a Judo tournament. The reason I am saying this is because of the state championships, national championships, World Championships and the Olympics.
    You are aware that Judo has a history that runs longer than the rule set to those events, yes? And that the rules for those events get changed with some regularity?

    If you don't understand this you more than likely never will. It may be because you didn't compete in Judo at a higher level and understand just how hard it is to make it on the national team, hell even to crack the top ten in some weight divisions. Nor can you comprehend the honor it is to represent your country on such a scale.
    The veneration of "higher level" competitors is probably the single biggest problem in how Judo is taught, practiced and thought about, in the US and beyond. Anything that gets people to stop humping that particular leg seems like a good thing.

    I have nothing against top level competitors or the inclusions of Judo in international events. But that is such a small set of individuals and to focus the entirely of a Martial Art upon them, especially one with the intellectual and practical foundations of Judo, does far too much of a disservice to the Art and the majority of its practitioners.
    Last edited by Fitz; 12/02/2009 11:53pm at .
  4. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2009 1:31am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When an organization no longer serves your purposes, you found a new one, such as FSJ. This is a basic rule of how healthy societies operate. The IJF is no longer serving the purpose of Judoka who don't play the classical Japanese style and to change it from within means dedicating your whole life to that purpose, playing within the IJF's restrictive ruleset. The only way to rise high enough in the rankings is to play the IJF-approved classical style. When you attempt to reform a system that doesn't compromise, it's not the system that changes. It's you.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
  5. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2009 5:17am


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post

    If you ippon someone then have them roll you over and get top position was it really an ippon?

    If you don't understand this you more than likely never will. It may be because you didn't compete in Judo at a higher level and understand just how hard it is to make it on the national team, hell even to crack the top ten in some weight divisions. Nor can you comprehend the honor it is to represent your country on such a scale.

    Olympic/International Judo is similar to Olympic/International anything: difficult, full of people who have sacrificed their lives for a tiny piece of metal (and most likely won't get it), and full of politics and nationalistic BS. Seriously, screw the Olympics (and high level competitions/qualifiers/sport junk). The IJF hasn't gotten there yet, but Taekwondo has been gutted to make it a 'spectator sport' by the WTF, and now very few TKD gyms will use anything but the crappy WTF rules for sparring along with crowd pleasing head kicks. Again Judo hasn't reached that point, but as someone who could give a flying flip about representing your country in a sport the obsession with rules, rankings, and sporting events by the IJF almost gives the common bullshidoka argument of Judo 'being a sport and not a martial art" some ring of truth.

    The obsession with a clean ippon and defining it like the one you mentioned above just highlights a growing trend of wanting 'pretty' judo and obsession with scoring. If that is what high level competition is supposed to be then that is lame but fine, whatever. However the focus on such things has just made the rule restriction on judo tighter and tighter (at least the all-Japan still retains some of its old school judo roots). By roping in all of the Judoka into an organization obsessed with raising Judo's profile and popularity as an international sport as opposed to providing the best possible training for a grappling martial art, you are doing the future of Judo a disservice. The IJF is slowly trying to make itself into the grappling equivalent of the WTF.
    Last edited by nightowl; 12/03/2009 5:23am at .
  6. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2009 5:21am


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehogey View Post
    The IJF is no longer serving the purpose of Judoka who don't play the classical Japanese style and to change it from within means dedicating your whole life to that purpose, playing within the IJF's restrictive ruleset.

    The IJF and what they decide to do is really outside of Japan's control at this point. From what I have seen the Japanese are a bit less stingy with rules in their local tourneys...the All Japan Tournament even has open weight classes still (it's the oldest running judo tournament and actually some of the lighter guys have done pretty well...Judo is about leverage after all).
  7. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/03/2009 8:11am


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehogey View Post
    The IJF is no longer serving the purpose of Judoka who don't play the classical Japanese style and to change it from within means dedicating your whole life to that purpose, playing within the IJF's restrictive ruleset. .
    This is the other issue.

    The IJF Ruleset is not reflective of Judo in the broad sense or any "Classical" Japanese style.

    Here's a decent article on the various early rulesets used in Judo

    http://www.judoinfo.com/shiai.htm

    Included in it is a link to a ruleset thought to reflect the earliest official rule-set for Judo.
  8. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2009 1:13pm

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     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Until there is a rule set that incorporates the best from Judo Sambo and BJJ we will be stuck with these separate distinctions.

    The IJF is not about the Japanese anymore. They are about Judo for the entire world. Just because the US is the ADHD child of the world does not mean it needs to change Judo to suit America. American Judoka need to focus on being good Judoka not some gimmicky player.

    Stop with the lack of newaza in Judo statements. It shows a lot of ignorance when it comes to competing in Judo. If competitors chose to not do newaza during a Judo match it is their choice. If you want to do newaza you better be dam good at it and attack. Not waiting for your opponent in your guard to do something so you can counter it.

    Throughout all my competition I have won a lot of matches with newaza. I have always been on the attack and rarely got stood up when I was working on the mat. When someone is going after it in newaza they are allowed the time to work. The BJJ way(painting with a very broad brush here don't misconstrue this statement, by BJJ way I mean working one position for 1-2 minutes to get to a submission) is not the way of doing newaza in Judo competition. I AM NOT SAYING THE BJJ WAY IS BAD just not what they want to see in JUDO competition.

    The IJF rules are also not done in a vacuum or by one lone person. It is s concensus by an international group. This doesn't make them infallible but it does make them more legitimate.

    If the FSJ are so distraught with the IJF rule set why don't they just compete in BJJ tournaments? It allows for throws and plenty of newaza. You can get points for positions and transitions. Why do they need to reinvent the wheel? There are plenty of other avenues to test the mettle of your students why the need to make up your own rules?

    As for the sentiment of to hell with the elite players and catering to them, WTF? I am not gong to stand in line a suck off a Judo world champions dick or swing from his nuts but I will want to listen to what he has to say about throwing another human on their skull.

    We are humans and we thrive on competition. Who is the best guy in your academy? How would he fair against the other academy's best guy down the street? The Olympics is just that on a global scale. It brings a whole new level of respect for a combat sport to be in the Olympics. Why do you think BJJ and karate want in it so badly?

    I think the FSJ is just not needed and another distraction from Judo competitions.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  9. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2009 6:34pm


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The IJF is not about the Japanese anymore. They are about Judo for the entire world. Just because the US is the ADHD child of the world does not mean it needs to change Judo to suit America. American Judoka need to focus on being good Judoka not some gimmicky player.
    A:黙れ!頑張って日本!

    B: So it needs to fit the needs of the French? And since when were leg attacks and newaza gimmicky?



    Stop with the lack of newaza in Judo statements. It shows a lot of ignorance when it comes to competing in Judo. If competitors chose to not do newaza during a Judo match it is their choice.
    They don't do newaza because the rules favor against it- maybe if they had a choice they would do it more. Chicken and egg my friend.


    If you want to do newaza you better be dam good at it and attack. Not waiting for your opponent in your guard to do something so you can counter it.
    Judo for Jackasses...is that you? If anything when I watched the beijing Olympics it was annoying how judoka took advantage of the ground rules by curling up into a tight turtle knowing that their opponent didn't have time to break their posture.


    The IJF rules are also not done in a vacuum or by one lone person. It is s consensus by an international group. This doesn't make them infallible but it does make them more legitimate.
    what it means is that everyone is politically sniping each other and prissying judo so that they can get the most possible international recognition for their country. It could be volleyball or swimming...the point isn't to make it a great martial art, but to make it something that can be paraded around in international events for nationalistic purposes. (That's the real meaning of the Olympics by the way Charlie Brown)


    As for the sentiment of to hell with the elite players and catering to them, WTF? I am not gong to stand in line a suck off a Judo world champions dick or swing from his nuts but I will want to listen to what he has to say about throwing another human on their skull.
    Different goals, same techniques.


    .......The Olympics is just that on a global scale. It brings a whole new level of respect for a combat sport to be in the Olympics. Why do you think BJJ and karate want in it so badly?
    Money and fame. See again: World Taekwondo Federation. TKD has become a HUGE international sport because of the efforts of the WTF to get it recognized in the Olympics (and the Koreans are extremely proud of the recognition). As a result people will train it solely for that ruleset and purpose, watering it down as a martial art.

    I think the FSJ is just not needed and another distraction from Judo competitions.
    And here is where we part ways. Judo is becoming all about this and keeping Judo 'pure'.

    The IJF Ruleset is not reflective of Judo in the broad sense or any "Classical" Japanese style.

    Here's a decent article on the various early rulesets used in Judo

    http://www.judoinfo.com/shiai.htm

    Included in it is a link to a ruleset thought to reflect the earliest official rule-set for Judo.
    Even the older IJF rules were better in some regards then they are now
  10. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/03/2009 7:06pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: 柔術

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Honestly, I think the issue with Judo Newaza could be solved by either labeling a turtle strategy without attempt to roll over or get back up as "stalling" with the appropriate penalty. Or consider Back Mount a "pin". If the other player gets both hooks in, its 25 seconds to get out or you lose by ippon.
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